Cait Sith / Atomos

[Lithera]

Cait is like Altana's eyes and ears sort of and the main thing for them is to make sure the gate(s) between alt time lines dun get re-open. Though with abyssea they can't do it alone and so they need a certain moogle king and our help. To me void watch and abyssea are tied in that the abyssea timeline is trying to melt into our timeline much like how the empty did. Since basically it still is since we fubared something up when fighting promvinion.

Atoms not sure what he does or how he really works but he eats the unwanted bits of timelines I guess. Not really sure where he falls in the who he is doing that for game if he isn't just doing it for fun. Though if I remember right Cait said to him to stop it because Altana wouldn't want him to be sucking up our timeline but he was too busy eating to hear. If he was a sin he would be gluttony. Not sure what comes out the other end or if he just up chucks new stuff or what. I kind if think we get "eaten" by him every time we go into abyssea or to the past.

[Rwolf]

LOL, FaeQueenCory. You went on a huge tangent there, I think there's some misunderstanding. When you stated Carbuncle is the most evil being there is, you said and I quote:

Carbuncle: Shattered his crystal to spead the "rubies" to world so that he can make people into summoners so he can try and wake the real gods so that when they awaken the platonic perfect world will reemerge... Carbuncle really is the most evil being in this game.

Implying that Carbuncle had this insidious plan of making Summoners to try and wake the real gods into this world based on Platonism. There is nothing that suggests Carbuncle believes in Platonism or has some insidious plan, if so provide some proof in the actual text of the game versus theory.

Um.... no. Why would anyone think he wants the gods to take over?

Umm... I don't know why. You are the one implying that Carbuncle has this plan of awakening some gods (still not mentioned who) who are going to emerge with this Platonism believed world. That is the definition of "taking over". Unless you're leaving out that these gods are planning to just ask everyone nicely.

He wants to revive them from their sleeping state... because he thinks if they wake up, then the Perfect World gets reformed, and humanity won't be reabsorbed into Promathia... this.... was kinda the ENTIRE POINT of CoP.
"Hey, remember how the Zilart bros wanted to 'open the gates of paradise' and remake the perfect world where everyone got to be a god?"
"uh... yeah? why didn't we do that? that sounded awesome."
"Cause if they did, it would have woken up Promathia and we all would get to be a god.... 's liver!"
"ew.... that's not what the Zilart promised..."
Carbuncle hoped to recreate the perfect world without Promathia... But, because he's just a rabbit... and NOT A REAL GOD... he doesn't comprehend the fact that remaking The Mothercrystal would result in the same thing as the Zilart Princes tried to do.
That's why Phoenix flipped her shit over him for doing something so suicidal.
That's more reason why Diabolos is GFTO.

Lot of personal opinions and fanfiction on the story. Quotes of unofficial text. Perfect World reformed? Opening the Gates of Paradise makes everyone a god? Carbuncle wants to remake the one true crystal? Phoenix flipped her shit on Carbuncle? Where is this in the game?

But the false gods of the world are NOT divine agents of Altana.
They are leftovers.

When a person dies, their soul is sent to rejoin the nearest mothercrystal. Phoenix is literally the reaper as she has the ability to control this process. Sorry, but the fact she is allowed to have such a purpose in what is nothing short of a grand design and the fact that the Terrestial avatars have only interfered with humanity opening the Gate of the Gods leads me to employment by Altana. Otherwise they wouldn't have let a lot of tragic things happen if they were simply doing whatever they want including a very pivotal event in Seekers of Adoulin involving a tree (most I'm saying given the fact it's new and you haven't done it yet).

The false gods are just that: false.

I'm not sure where I said they were real gods... Hmmm...

They aren't protectors... not unless we pact them to be, ala Fenrir.
They are no different from you or I or anyone else...

5 Terrestial Avatars, 5 Mothercrystals. Phoenix manipulating what goes in and out of the crystals. Diabolos literally sitting on the mothercrystal, Vahzl in Pso'Xja. Every word every one of them has said speaks about nothing but defending Vana'diel's existence. If they aren't protecting anything at all, you need to qualify that with something actually in the game or it's simply "I think/believe X happens".

Some want to restore the Perfect World (Carbuncle, which I, and Phoenix AND Diabolos, qualify as evil because bad things will happen to the imperfect beings in a perfect world, remember evil =/= bad... not unless you're 3.), some want to blow up all the Zilartian descendants (Bahamut), and some just want to chill and/or have fun/adventures (Diabolos and Phoenix)... the only difference is that they are perfect beings in an imperfect world... So they look like gods to us... but then, we look like gods to ants.

And obviously doesn't know the definition of evil.

e·vil ˈēvəl/ adjective 1. profoundly immoral and malevolent. Synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious;

(It really helps to be well versed in Platonic thought when discussing the metaphysics of systems derived from that school of Philosophy.

And now I know why you're pushing Platonism onto Carbuncle.

[Brightshadow]

Cait is like Altana's eyes and ears sort of and the main thing for them is to make sure the gate(s) between alt time lines dun get re-open. Though with abyssea they can't do it alone and so they need a certain moogle king and our help. To me void watch and abyssea are tied in that the abyssea timeline is trying to melt into our timeline much like how the empty did. Since basically it still is since we fubared something up when fighting promvinion.

Atoms not sure what he does or how he really works but he eats the unwanted bits of timelines I guess. Not really sure where he falls in the who he is doing that for game if he isn't just doing it for fun. Though if I remember right Cait said to him to stop it because Altana wouldn't want him to be sucking up our timeline but he was too busy eating to hear. If he was a sin he would be gluttony. Not sure what comes out the other end or if he just up chucks new stuff or what. I kind if think we get "eaten" by him every time we go into abyssea or to the past.

That still doesn't explain how Cait Sith and Atomos are avatars, in the lore of cop we find out that there are two categories of avatars the terrestrial and celestial, and for the celestial beings we know there are 8 because each one is associated with an element, as for the terrestrial beings we know there are only only 5 because they protect the mothercrystals. So these two avatars are a new category that we have no information about.

[Lithera]

We'll Atmos doesn't talk at least not in a way we understand. I can't remember if Cait or someone else calls them an avatar or not. Also a little fuzzy if one of the spite wardens calls Cait one or not or if the bad Cait calls themselves it. Though Atmos is at least summoned by Lady Lilith to eat what is left of lilliset in front of us. I guess they are part of the Odin Alexander group of other.

[Brightshadow]

We'll Atmos doesn't talk at least not in a way we understand. I can't remember if Cait or someone else calls them an avatar or not. Also a little fuzzy if one of the spite wardens calls Cait one or not or if the bad Cait calls themselves it. Though Atmos is at least summoned by Lady Lilith to eat what is left of lilliset in front of us. I guess they are part of the Odin Alexander group of other.

Odin and Alexander are not random avatars they are the Celestial Guardians of light and dark, which are in the stars of vana'diel. Atomos and Cait Sith cannot be neither Celestial nor Terrestrial unless SE decides to make them forgotten Terrestrial avatars; however, then that would bring up the question why aren't they defending any mothercrystals. The best thing SE could do is introduce them into a new category of avatars without giving us any hint of what the other avatars in that category are.

[Lithera]

We'll they guard the gates between timelines. Since Cait at the end of WotG they choose to guard the gate between our time line and where the spite wardens came from. Atmos eats unwanted time lines so I guess they are avatars of time and space?

[Imakun]

I don't think Cait Sith and Atomos need to necessarily fit into a category just because we have a name for the other avatars. Wasn't Cait Sith created by Altana's will? I guess that could make it a Divine Avatar or something.
Atomos might be called the Avatar of Time and that's it.
We also have the obvious Avatar from Adoulin still lurking behind the scenes. What would you call that then when the time comes? :P

[Shinzaku]

Just because there are 5 Mothercrystals doesn't mean there has to be one avatar per crystal, so I think Cait and Atomos could fit as Terrestial Avatars. Where do we get most game lore? From in-game characters and information. In that sense of perspective, they don't necessarily know everything.

[Zeargi]

Okay. This Will Contain More Spoilers


First off, The Terrestrial Avatars don't have a protocrystal, they are beings bathed in the light of Altana and converted into their current form. Most of them protect the crystals because they don't want the Gates to Paradise to open again, because it means they revert back to normal.

Fenrir: He died at the end of the Crystal War, Killing with him Karaha-Baruha. The reason that Fenrir dies it this is a 'Perfect Summoning,' where we the players only summon a fragment. But if you play in Windy, you'll know that Karaha had a Cardian - "Joker" which lead another group of cardians made by Zonpa-Zippa. When Fenrir Dies it also kills Joker because their life force is linked to there Master, Karaha-Baruha. Moving to Carbuncle for a moment, He shatters his ruby and scatters the shards across Vana'diel to spy on the world and look for potential pawns. He devised a plan to revive Fenrir, using would be summoners to siphon off the energy of the "Sleeping Gods" and pour it into the Full Moon Fountain. But he has to be careful because waking the ALL Gods, ends his current life, and he wants to keep his job. (Not evil, but not 100% good either). Now, back in Windy the S.o.Bs. Revive Joker, which is a big no-no because in doing so revives the Master, Karaha-Baruha, But he's already merged with Fenrir, so the beings now share a disfigured form as the Bearer of Darkness. At the end of the Missions: Fenrir is separated from Karaha and now returns to the Full Moon Fountain, but with the loss of the Diza Star, Fenrir's visions are lost to the people of Windurst as the Star Sibyl can't perform the Moon and Star's Reading.

Now, The reason I say this, is because the exact same thing is happening to Phoenix. The only difference is that She willing merged with a lesser being to preserve her life. She also is close to one of the Mothercrystals, which she has bathed in it's light since the end of CoP.

This is a Theory:
Shinryu is "Promathia" formed from the the defeat of player and Selh'teus now fused with the Phoenix, Which I believe was originally part of him to begin with; likewise Carbuncle, Diabolos, Bahamut, Fenrir. With no one to stop him now, Promathia sets forth and defeats each of his parts, Carbuncle Prime, Bahamut Prime, Diabolos Prime, and Fenrir Prime. Now merged together, he transforms back into his original form, which is Shinryu. Which shatters the other crystals of the Sleeping Gods and allows them to Walk across Abyssea. Diabolos and Carbuncle have already divided themselves as it is (Dynamis being prof that this is possible, as well as they are the ONLY terrestrial avatar you meet that allows you contact a Non-Prime version.) so their shards still roam unaffected by the change. The merger of the Mothercrystals back to the Great Crystal is in process, and hasn't been completed yet, so Shinryu, returns to Al'Taieu and waits for it to be completed so he once again begin his task of bringing the world to the end so it can be re-born. After all in order to "save his life" and prevent him from having to die, Altana Shattered the crystal. I assume, she shattered it as his soul was entering the Crystal, because when things die their life force is draw to the crystal. Shattering the crystal with his soul inside, caused the cycle of death and re-born to be broken and with the latest world being the final world, Vana'diel. But the world was imperfect because the divine force that governed it had also been broken, which gave birth to the 5 terrestrial avatars. Meaning that Promathia's 'body' in Al'Taieu was nothing more than a Husk moving with the leftover rage, cowardice, evny, apathy, and arrogance he cursed the children of Vana'diel with.

[Rwolf]

I don't get the whole passing off theory as fact. If there's no story-related official in-game, Vana'diel tribune or otherwise mention from SE, it is not fact and not something to attempt to be corrected. You can't say you're all wrong, this is how it is. You can say this is the theory you believe and back it up with why you believe that is. I can recognize that Terrestial avatars being guardians of the mothercrystals is not fact. It is a sound theory.

FACT: Phoenix controls the natural passage of life and death to and from the mothercrystals including herself.
FACT: There are 5 Terrestial Avatars who have guarded Vana'diel at least since the time of the Zilart/Ku'luu, albeit in their own individual ways of how Vana'diel should be saved.
FACT: The Terrestial Avatars by proxy protect the mothercrystals because it will end life on Vana'diel.
FACT: The Terrestial Avatars are not gods, they are mortal beasts who can die.
FACT: Terrestial Avatars can be ressurected.
FACT: Terrestial Avatars can merge with a host and later be removed from them.
FACT: Terrestial Avatars chose to become what they are.

Still, I became a terrestrial avatar in order to assist mankind, and I fully intend to continue my work.

FACT: Carbuncle is not manipulating anyone. Carbuncle asks Summoners to help him on his quest. Manipulating would require him misleading summoners and it being proven in the story.

Theory: Terrestial Avatars have nothing to do with Altana and were created by happenstance.
The problem I have with the theory that the Terrestial Avatars have no role and simply commonplace animals back then is where are the rest of the overpowered avatar animals? Why are there only 5? Why are they the only ones concerned about saving Vana'diel? Why are the roles of the Terrestial Avatar's so instrumental in the grand design? Why did Altana even give them powers if all animals aren't created with that much power? It leaves too many unanswered questions to support that theory for me.

Theory: Carbuncle is evil or has partially evil intent
The problem I have with the theory that Carbuncle is in some way even partially evil, is there is nothing to support it. Just because he wants to awaken the sleeping gods does not make ill intent. Naivety maybe, but not evil. He states in Waking the Beast, he had no intention of the humanity's will being bent by the Celestial Avatars. He does think the world needs to be restored to it's true form (Source: The Moonlit Path quest). We have no idea what the true form of Vana'diel is. There is no proof that waking the celestial avatars is equivalent to opening the Gate of the Gods, ending Vana'diel. If that were true, then the Zilart would have just tried to awaken them and Carbuncle would have went to the Zilart to begin with and wouldn't have helped stop the Gate of the Gods to be opened.

What type of avatars are Cait Sith and Atomos?
They are simply avatars, like others have mentioned. Just because we have two sets of categories, does not mean there cannot be a 3rd or more. Hopefully the quest to unlock Cait Sith will tell us more but so far all we know is Cait Sith is the only avatar to actually be created directly from Altana (Source: WotG storyline). Where the celestial avatars use to be men and women (Source: Vana'diel Tribune) and the terrestial avatars use to be animals (Source: Carbunce: The Moonlit Path).