Cait Sith / Atomos

[Rwolf]

It's called a lot of death for Phoenix.

There is no proof in the current storyline to support that. It is only theory based on the Phoenix Blade gaining power from lost life. Gaining power does not automatically mean restoration of life. Also Phoenix decided not to return to the mothercrystal to be reborn, so we have no idea what would happen if she did.

That and I'm not sure if she can be unbound from Sel'theus without harming him. It's one thing to unbind her from an unliving object and another to do with a living person.

We have no idea how Phoenix joined herself to Sel'theus. There is no point in the story that says Phoenix is bound to Sel'theus. We just assume that because they are combined and as with other storylines, not all fusions are permanent. Square-Enix has lots of room to work in a Phoenix storyline. They haven't painted themselves in a corner as you're making it out to be where it's impossible from a lore perspective. All of this is player speculation, not story related fact.

If we did get bahamut I still think it would be a begrudged pact. I mean come on he might be starting to be impressed with the five races but do you really think he won't try another time to kill you all plan again instead of going ok let's work together through a pact. He isn't very trusting and I wouldn't be either if some eternal boy couldn't hold up his end of a pact what is to say someone of the five races will?

If Bahamut was completely untrusting of humanity in the way you are saying, he would have continued to destroy humanity to save Vana'diel, not stop after Phoenix countered against him on the Airship and certainly wouldn't have stopped after fighting him in the Quest, Storms of Fate. Which is the last story related Bahamut fight. After you beat Bahamut he says the following:

You have delayed mankind's extinction yet again... An age is a mere flicker to a wyrm. However, enough flickers united form a star. Children of Vana'diel. Unite and form a future in which mankind can survive.

Then Bahamut gives you his whisper which is a fragment of his power just like all the other avatars, only difference is you can't choose to apply that power to Summoning magic. I don't think it would be a begrudged pact, because someone who completely distrusts your motivations and capabilities wouldn't attempt to motive you, give you a portion of his power and stop trying to destroy the world which he could have easily done.

[FaeQueenCory]

Don't forget that Phoenix... like seemingly all the false "gods" when you think about it... except Diabolos and Bahamut... is a fragmentary being.

• Carbuncle: Shattered his crystal to spead the "rubies" to world so that he can make people into summoners so he can try and wake the real gods so that when they awaken the platonic perfect world will reemerge... Carbuncle really is the most evil being in this game.
• Fenrir: Doesn't have a crystal "sleeping form"... and hence why he is dead and dying. This is why Carbuncle has the player "recharge" Fenrir's life with power from the real gods.
• Diabolos: not fragmentary... he also is GFTO by using his "escape pod" universe he created: Dynamis.
• Bahamut: not fragmentary like Diabolos... He's just being mean flying around and wanting to kill everyone... Can't imagine why Diabolos would want to leave this world...
• Phoenix: like Carbuncle, only we are given no explanation for why or how her crystal was shattered... BUT we are told a fragment of it exists within Tenzen's blade... and he DOES imply that her crystal shard can be reawoken through the use of life sacrifice... BUT the life-force that was residing in that crystal shard is now in Selh'teus...

Basically, there is 0 reason why Phoenix could never become a summon.
She, like Carbuncle, is a fragmentary being and has shards of her crystal all around the world.
Just like Carbuncle's Ruby... there is no reason why they player could not find a shard of Phoenix and charge it to gain the ability to summon her.
It's no different than charging Carbuncle's Ruby with the diffuse energy of the real gods. (ie the weather energy)
Or reviving/recharging Fenrir's lifeforce with the direct energy of the real gods.

We have to remember that these beings are not real divinities.
They are just platonic ideal Forms that exist by chance in our imperfect world.
Carbuncle is *just* a rarab. (they have the same attack pattern, check it out)
Fenrir is *just* a wolf.
Diabolos is *just* a kindred.
Bahamut is *just* a dragon.
Phoenix is *just* a bird.
They only appear to be special to us... because they are "perfect ideal forms of what the pale shadow imitations we know directly are".

[Darkdragongers]

What about a Siren avatar on Seekers of Adoulin?

[Pawlie]

Phoenix would make a cool weapon skill for summoners only. He was in Tenzens sword after..

As for Siren... isn't this the concept art for FFXI? Whats it about?



http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy..._Monster_5.jpg

[Draylo]

Yeah that is the concept art. I wouldn't be so quick to jump to avatar conclusions though. Look at what they do to Ixion, Cerberus, Bismark etc. I wish they wouldn't though, but admittedly I never was a fan for Siren tbh lol.

[Rwolf]

The Terrestial avatars are more than existing by chance. They were tasked by Altana long ago to protect the mothercrystals and by proxy, Vana'diel. Because the Mothercrystals together is the one true crystal at the beginning cutscene.I completely forgot about Fenrir's resurrection, solidifying that Terrestial Avatars can be reborn. If Fenrir can, the fiery bird of resurrection surely can.

Carbuncle though, isn't evil. He believes that Vana'diel's salvation is through cooperation with the Gods. The newer beings working with the older beings to form a new world. He does want to awaken the celestial avatars eventually but knows very well that the "sleeping gods" are not ready for this change immediately. In the quest, "Waking the Beast" Carbuncle actually tries to stop you from fully resurrecting them and bending to their will. The "6 sleeping gods" have been trapped in slumber since they were made into gods, and each of them still thinks the world is as it was when they were made into avatars. Carbuncle says this in the end:

You were never meant to submit to the will of the sleeping gods. And I will never lose my faith in the children of Vana'diel. Even those ancient beings will one day learn the great truth from mortals.

He doesn't want the celestial avatars to take over, he wants them to learn from humanity that the world is not how it was when they were created.

[Brightshadow]

Fenrir is no longer dead, if you play the Windurst storyline you see the Star Sibyl bring back Fenrir by wishing him back when see regains a portion of her power from the joker. Phoenix would have been a better choice than Cait Sith; however, since Square Enix never added any lore of Phoenix in WOTG they would have to create a storyline quest or we would have to wait till we go to the far east.

[FaeQueenCory]

The Terrestial avatars are more than existing by chance. They were tasked by Altana long ago to protect the mothercrystals and by proxy, Vana'diel. Because the Mothercrystals together is the one true crystal at the beginning cutscene.I completely forgot about Fenrir's resurrection, solidifying that Terrestial Avatars can be reborn. If Fenrir can, the fiery bird of resurrection surely can.

Carbuncle though, isn't evil. He believes that Vana'diel's salvation is through cooperation with the Gods. The newer beings working with the older beings to form a new world. He does want to awaken the celestial avatars eventually but knows very well that the "sleeping gods" are not ready for this change immediately. In the quest, "Waking the Beast" Carbuncle actually tries to stop you from fully resurrecting them and bending to their will. The "6 sleeping gods" have been trapped in slumber since they were made into gods, and each of them still thinks the world is as it was when they were made into avatars. Carbuncle says this in the end:

He doesn't want the celestial avatars to take over, he wants them to learn from humanity that the world is not how it was when they were created.

Um.... no.
Why would anyone think he wants the gods to take over? He wants to revive them from their sleeping state... because he thinks if they wake up, then the Perfect World gets reformed, and humanity won't be reabsorbed into Promathia... this.... was kinda the ENTIRE POINT of CoP.
"Hey, remember how the Zilart bros wanted to 'open the gates of paradise' and remake the perfect world where everyone got to be a god?"
"uh... yeah? why didn't we do that? that sounded awesome."
"Cause if they did, it would have woken up Promathia and we all would get to be a god.... 's liver!"
"ew.... that's not what the Zilart promised..."

Carbuncle hoped to recreate the perfect world without Promathia... But, because he's just a rabbit... and NOT A REAL GOD... he doesn't comprehend the fact that remaking The Mothercrystal would result in the same thing as the Zilart Princes tried to do.
That's why Phoenix flipped her shit over him for doing something so suicidal.
That's more reason why Diabolos is GFTO.

The Mothercrystal Recreation plan "Gates of Paradise" was twarted by Altana (who grew to love these little imperfect beings just as much as her dead lover/twin), her physical presence: The Dawn Maidens, and the even less perfect Kuluu.
Though to be fair... the Kuluu seemed more "let's rise up against the masters" rather than actual "they are gonna kill us all" as Altana and the Dawn Maidens knew would happen.
And the Kuluu enlisted the help of Fenrir for... whatever that operation they did with him entailed. (wouldn't THAT have been a cool CS... all we get is the aftermath CS...)
But the false gods of the world are NOT divine agents of Altana.
They are leftovers.
The only beings who have ever been agents of Altana have been two groups/beings:
1) The Dawn Maidens - The Zilartian women who can literally hear the thoughts of Altana through the training of the whisper of the soul... their leader was Yve'noile... Not only the leader of the Dawn Maidens, but also the Zilartian Princess. (which I need to point out... Vanadiel needs to be run by the princesses... all the other leaders in Vanadiel are bad leaders for whatever reason... but the princesses have consistently been super awesome... though there's only two. -haven't done Adoulin yet-)
2) The Caits/Cait Sith - She is the Tears of Altana... so... she's kinda Altana's direct children? So... Cait Sith is a real god? She's not a "terrestrial Avatar" because she only came into being during the shadowreign era... bajillions of years after the Perfect World was destroyed.
(And as if the "organized religion is wrong" message wasn't strong enough... RotZ brought us that the "Gates of Paradise" is actually a FAR plot to remake the former Perfect World... not some Heaven ideal. CoP brought with us the revelation that the racist teachings of the Church that the 5 races are "tears of Altana" is BS, they're former Zilart and Kuluu who were magically mutagenized from the fallout from the sabotage of the Gates of Paradise fiasco... just like ALL humanoids are... beastmen included. And then WotG brought us "oh, you thought that YOU were the 'tears of Altana'?? Sorry... apparently Altana cries kitties.")

The false gods are just that: false.
They aren't protectors... not unless we pact them to be, ala Fenrir.
They are no different from you or I or anyone else... Some want to restore the Perfect World (Carbuncle, which I, and Phoenix AND Diabolos, qualify as evil because bad things will happen to the imperfect beings in a perfect world, remember evil =/= bad... not unless you're 3.), some want to blow up all the Zilartian descendants (Bahamut), and some just want to chill and/or have fun/adventures (Diabolos and Phoenix)... the only difference is that they are perfect beings in an imperfect world... So they look like gods to us... but then, we look like gods to ants.

(It really helps to be well versed in Platonic thought when discussing the metaphysics of systems derived from that school of Philosophy. Though if Plato and his Forms aren't your cup of tea, Gnostic Christianity can also suffice since there is so much overlap between the two. And if you want to be entertained with your learning... you can always watch Lesbians and Roses Revolutionary Girl Utena.)

Fenrir is no longer dead, if you play the Windurst storyline you see the Star Sibyl bring back Fenrir by wishing him back when see regains a portion of her power from the joker. Phoenix would have been a better choice than Cait Sith; however, since Square Enix never added any lore of Phoenix in WOTG they would have to create a storyline quest or we would have to wait till we go to the far east.

Actually.... Fenrir is "dead and dreaming".
Always.
What the Star Sibyl did was just to revive the fountain... which is serving as Fenrir's "home crystal"... because for whatever reason, Fenrir either never came with one, or his was lost at some indeterminate point.
Either way, he resides within the Full Moon Fountain. But he was not revived thanks to the Star Sibyl's prayers, just the light was returned to the Fountain.
I think the best way to look at all the false gods and especially Fenrir, is like the "gods" of HP Lovecraft. (not the Outer Gods... the other "gods" Cthulhu is the best well known... but there's other entities.)
Fenrir is "dead and dreaming." He's not actually dead the way you or I would envision death... because he is a higher dimensional entity, hence why he appears as a god to us. He is a leftover from the Perfect World. And as such, can't truly die... mostly.
He CAN die... just... it's a LOT harder with the stuff within this imperfect world than if the world was perfect again.
And so his "dead but dreaming" state is similar to a dead phone. Or better, an older iPhone. iPhones hold their charge... very poorly to say the least. And Fenrir is similar, in order to be awake (which in this case is synonymous with alive) he must be constantly recharged via the direct powers of the real gods.
Of course, the analogy isn't 100%, because it's an analogy. And the most that would happen to him if Carbuncle and summoners stopped bringing him whispers is that he's just go to sleep forever... unlike an iPhone that will eventually stop carrying a charge all together and has diminishing returns after each charging...
but then... both of these things are, again, due to him being a perfect being.

As for Phoenix... it's simple: find "Phoenix's Ruby", charge it somehow, have some CSs, gain Phoenix summon. Given her fragmentary nature... yeah. She'd have to be a 2hr-only smn. (which I guess would deal mega fire damage and apply arise/rr3 to everyone? eh... the devs can figure something out.)

[Brightshadow]

Phoenix doesn't have to be a 2HR only avatar because we manifest a small portion of the avatars power with our own lifeforce, and reviving her is quite simple just add some type of phoenix emerald and make us recharge it, then fight her to be able to summon her. Shes somewhat similar to alexander because she has lost her physical form.

[Brightshadow]

But what im really more interested about since this is a Cait Sith and Atomos thread, what type of avatars are they since its never really explained in the storyline, just seems weird to have Cait Sith become an avatar without an explanation.