Records of Eminence!

[Afania]

Personally, I play games to get away from how shitty my real life, and real life in general is for most people, not so I can go play a game modeled around real life where I get screwed just as badly because I don't have a ton of friends who will help or I don't have tons of cash to buy everything I want. If I wanted things to be like real life, I would do things in real life, and I would get somewhere in my real life, far before I would ever take the same kind of actions in a game that I play to get away from it all, and has no barring on my real life.

Also, again, I never said Very Hard was rewarding. The point is, if you want something difficult, the option is available, you can challenge yourself, and you can say your awesome because you won, you deserve nothing more than that for playing a game, surely not something you can hold over other people's heads and say your better for having, which people have done in so many games, including this one, so many times, that its stupid to add yet again. Yay, you can make the top 1% of players happy they get super awesome items only they can have, and at the same time, annoy countless others with nearly unobtainable items that can, and likely will be, held over their heads for a long time to come because they were 'to gimp' to get it or some such. Really, lets just avoid this.

If you want challenge, you can have it, if you want rewards, you can have it, if you want rewards only you can get, no, you cant have it. My views on it all are as simple and clear as that.

Your POV is more like "I don't play the game as hard as hardcore players, so they can't have nice things because I don't have them", not about what makes a game better.

You also completely ignored the fact that I pointed out 99% of the gears in FFXI doesn't make or break the game if you don't have it. If you're poor irl you'd starve to death on the street, if you don't have best things in FFXI you won't die, nor even kick out of any event for lacking just 1 piece of item unless you're jobs like BRD PLD DRG. So what's the big deal if you don't have them?

But this is a video game, and there are more stuff involved that's not just about making you happy and not giving everyone else good things. From game design's POV, a fun game design is to make challenge and reward ppl so they challenge the content.

Or else I can also pop on a forum, saying I play for 2hr a week and I can't beat any AA/DM/delve/skirmish, may I have all the 119 gears by just playing 5hrs? Because I'm so casual that everyone else can't have better things than I am?



This is an MMO, and used to be a more hardcore title than a lot of F2P easy mode MMO on the market, IMO MMO needs to have some similar connection to real life to be appealing. If I "play games to get away from how shitty my real life is", I can play single player games, face book games, mobile games......games I can play for 5 min and accomplish something.

If I'm playing an MMO, I expect real life interactions that I can't get from single player games. Or else what's the point to play? Spending $12 a month, countless hours just to kill stuff and get item same as everyone else, which you can do in any F2P MMO or single player games at much faster pace.

Even XIV, a title I considered quite bad 1 month ago did some change with raid gear IL level recently(XIV's gear makes much more difference than XI gear mind you), after realizing their mistake.

All I see is "Hardcore can't have good things because I'm not hardcore", and just plain hate hardcore for having items for no logical reason. I'm not hardcore myself and there's plenty of items I don't have, I never have issue seeing other ppl have stuff I don't have, never have issue getting an invite to any content unless my job doesn't match either.

[Demonjustin]

Your POV is more like "I don't play the game as hard as hardcore players, so they can't have nice things because I don't have them", not about what makes a game better.

Actually I have most things I want in this game if I care enough to get them, I just often can't be bothered to sacrifice my own entertainment for it, not to say I haven't before, my Excalibur, Almace, current stock of Alexandrite, and a few other things are a result of painful grinding that was both boring and annoying, and yet I did it. So, its not a matter of things I can not get, the only event that issue ever came up with is when I wanted to do Legion, and like always, RDM was not exceptionally useful for it, thus, I was often not allowed, I missed out on Iaso gear due to that fact and now that I can finally participate in Legion due to it's being eased, Iaso has no use for me any longer.

So to say I am holding this stance due to the fact that I can't get what I want seems unlikely to me, rather, if anything, its a view based to protect my friends, because as anyone who knows me can tell you, I have primarily been in a semi-social shell for 2 years playing with people no where near the top and have joined other more endgame shells at times in order to fulfill my need to progress, if anything, I think this view would be sticking up for those people who I know can not get what they want because of their limitations on time or lack of assistance.

You also completely ignored the fact that I pointed out 99% of the gears in FFXI doesn't make or break the game if you don't have it. If you're poor irl you'd starve to death on the street, if you don't have best things in FFXI you won't die, nor even kick out of any event for lacking just 1 piece of item unless you're jobs like BRD PLD DRG. So what's the big deal if you don't have them?

You say this, yet, almost every job accepted into events requires something to be taken, not all of which is easy in any sense to get ahold of. WAR needs Razorfury, MNK needs Oats, WHM needs capped Cure Potency with +2 Body/Legs, BLM doesn't get brought, RDM is hardly ever brought, in the event it does, its often decently demanding of decent gear(like Silencing Tojil), THF is hardly ever brought to events, when it is, your expected to have TH7, which till the Login Campaigns was difficult for some people due to Dynamis Win issues. Thats just the first 6 jobs, PLD needs Ochain/Aegis/DT gear and still hardly gets brought, DRK needs Senbaak, BST sucks, BRD is essential to every event but people want a Harp or Horn before you get that invite, RNG is rare but requires Relic gun for enmity issues, SAM requires Fudo and Tsurumaru/Masasamemaru depending on content, NIN sucks, DRG requires Upu. I leave it there, you get my point, you can say that its no big deal, but nearly every single job has something people will require you to have to participate that is not particularly easy to obtain for people outside of the endgame community or the people who are simply late to catching up to an event like Delve where everyone finished it months ago, and doesn't want to do it anymore.

But this is a video game, and there are more stuff involved that's not just about making you happy and not giving everyone else good things. From game design's POV, a fun game design is to make challenge and reward ppl so they challenge the content.

You are rewarded with more items for winning on higher levels, you also have a higher drop rate on certain things like gear so far as I know, you do get rewarded for beating the challenge, you can argue the reward isn't worth it, but its a reward, not every reward has to be super powerful or special gear to be a reward. This whole debate started with the idea there are no challenging things in this game to do, not that there are no rewarding challenging things to do, just no challenge, the point I made from the start is the challenge exists, if you truly want challenge for the sake of challenge, not for super special gear, but the thrill of the challenge itself, it exists, and is open for you to try your best to win at.

Or else I can also pop on a forum, saying I play for 2hr a week and I can't beat any AA/DM/delve/skirmish, may I have all the 119 gears by just playing 5hrs? Because I'm so casual that everyone else can't have better things than I am?

You're arguing a vastly different thing here and I can not even tell the relation. At what point in this talk was there mention of anyone ever asking gear to be given to them for free without the work involved? Your issue seems to stem from the fact you do not believe they are 'good enough' to have earned it because they can pick lower difficulty levels in order to complete it, albeit at a slower pace than those who do it on higher levels.

This is an MMO, and used to be a more hardcore title than a lot of F2P easy mode MMO on the market, IMO MMO needs to have some similar connection to real life to be appealing. If I "play games to get away from how shitty my real life is", I can play single player games, face book games, mobile games......games I can play for 5 min and accomplish something.

That depends on how you view the game. I play a MMO because I want to play a game, enjoy myself, and yet at the same time have some sort of meaningful interaction with other people still. I could go play Call of Duty Ghosts, but thats not meaningful interaction, I may say something to someone once or twice, and then Ill never hear from them again, or I will listen to the other team insult my team and call us names or use derogatory slang terms to denounce us, but this is not the interaction I want with people. I play MMOs like FFXI because I love RPGs, one of my favorite things, and yet at the same time I lack the feel of human interaction I want from them normally, MMORPGs like this do fix that issue. So playing SP games or Facebook games, isn't the same to me, they do not do the same.

If I'm playing an MMO, I expect real life interactions that I can't get from single player games. Or else what's the point to play? Spending $12 a month, countless hours just to kill stuff and get item same as everyone else, which you can do in any F2P MMO or single player games at much faster pace.

Real life interactions I agree with, but, how do real life interactions translate into there needing to be super powerful gear only 1% of players can get? That, I do not understand.

All I see is "Hardcore can't have good things because I'm not hardcore", and just plain hate hardcore for having items for no logical reason. I'm not hardcore myself and there's plenty of items I don't have, I never have issue seeing other ppl have stuff I don't have, never have issue getting an invite to any content unless my job doesn't match either.

I can not say whether I am 'Hardcore' or not, I have never had someone describe the term to me in a solid way that I could confirm or deny if I fit into that category of players.

I have tried to explain my reasons why I do not like the idea of items only some people can get while the great majority will never be able to obtain, the only thing I can think of I haven't pointed out is my disdain for content being made that so few people will do when a lot of people already have run out of things to do, while Monstrosity, Records, and things like them are very cool and I love that they were added, it does not change the fact that there is a lack of endgame content that has real staying power like Delve originally had the first 2 months, something that would likely still have momentum had the mistake of unlimited time for NMs not been made, which accelerated our progression outrageously and caused the lack of content to become so much more notable.

In the end, I do not like the idea, I explained my reasons, if you can not find any logic in this and want to continue with the assumption I have something against the 'Hardcore' players, then so be it, but at that point unless you can provide a real & valid reason to believe that is true outside of just saying it, I think this is pointless to continue.

[Afania]

So to say I am holding this stance due to the fact that I can't get what I want seems unlikely to me, rather, if anything, its a view based to protect my friends, because as anyone who knows me can tell you, I have primarily been in a semi-social shell for 2 years playing with people no where near the top and have joined other more endgame shells at times in order to fulfill my need to progress, if anything, I think this view would be sticking up for those people who I know can not get what they want because of their limitations on time or lack of assistance.

I have plenty of social LS/friend too, 90% of (real) casual players I know of actually doesn't give jack shit about being 1% or being 10% behind hardcore, they have enough to do before worry about top gears.

You say this, yet, almost every job accepted into events requires something to be taken, not all of which is easy in any sense to get ahold of. WAR needs Razorfury, MNK needs Oats, WHM needs capped Cure Potency with +2 Body/Legs, BLM doesn't get brought, RDM is hardly ever brought, in the event it does, its often decently demanding of decent gear(like Silencing Tojil), THF is hardly ever brought to events, when it is, your expected to have TH7, which till the Login Campaigns was difficult for some people due to Dynamis Win issues. Thats just the first 6 jobs, PLD needs Ochain/Aegis/DT gear and still hardly gets brought, DRK needs Senbaak, BST sucks, BRD is essential to every event but people want a Harp or Horn before you get that invite, RNG is rare but requires Relic gun for enmity issues, SAM requires Fudo and Tsurumaru/Masasamemaru depending on content, NIN sucks, DRG requires Upu. I leave it there, you get my point, you can say that its no big deal, but nearly every single job has something people will require you to have to participate that is not particularly easy to obtain for people outside of the endgame community or the people who are simply late to catching up to an event like Delve where everyone finished it months ago, and doesn't want to do it anymore.

Then play the game ._.

Pretty much every RPG, MMO or single player, including FFXI, require you to beat A to do B. You have to beat 1st boss in an RPG to challenge 2nd boss, beat 2nd boss to challenge the 3rd. Can't beat 3rd boss? Grind the level, grind some money, buy new gears and beat it.

What I don't understand is, you're pretty much asking all players able to beat 3rd boss right from the get go. Ok so you don't need to get Senbaak/Oat/WHM+2 body/legs/TH7 for your jobs, what else you wanna do in this game? Log on and expect to be able to clear the hardest content and quit? Everything about RPG is about spending time and pimp your character. That is the core of RPG gameplay, character progression. If you don't have those items go get it. What else do you expect from a RPG? May as well play RTS or FPS if you don't want the character progression as part of game play.

Abyssea is a 2010 content and released before delve, there isn't anything wrong to do abyssea first from RPG's POV.

The hard part is that everyone's done with it, but this is an issue that will happen in every single MMO, not just FFXI. And it's certainly not because the hardest content drops exclusive gears

Your example of casuals can't get Abyssea gear without help doesn't support VD shouldn't be more rewarding arguement.

You are rewarded with more items for winning on higher levels, you also have a higher drop rate on certain things like gear so far as I know, you do get rewarded for beating the challenge, you can argue the reward isn't worth it, but its a reward, not every reward has to be super powerful or special gear to be a reward. This whole debate started with the idea there are no challenging things in this game to do, not that there are no rewarding challenging things to do, just no challenge, the point I made from the start is the challenge exists, if you truly want challenge for the sake of challenge, not for super special gear, but the thrill of the challenge itself, it exists, and is open for you to try your best to win at.

My arguement is simple. If you spend 3 min worth of work, you get 3 min worth of reward. If you spend 10 hour worth of work, you get 10 hour worth of reward. If you spend 10k hours of work, you get 10k hour worth of reward. The reward/effort ratio must be right.

If 10k hours of work gives same reward as 3 min worth of work, then it makes no sense even in a video game, and it's certainly a design flaw.


I'm not complaining about the game lacking challenge. There are always challenge if you want to challenge yourself. Even without DM VD mode, if I want to challenge myself I can just make a 7~9 person pt try to beat delve, or use a none popular job for delve.

But AA/DM VD is a content, and atm I feel VD(especially DM VD) is completely not worth the effort to farm, since RME upgrade item doesn't worth shit now. A lot of friends of mine just solo very easy mode for pages/mat all day, if ppl want item drops they do normal/difficult. I rarely ever see ppl farm AA VD, let alone DM VD. Some(including myself tbh) even refuse to party and just solo RoE for pages.


This is a design flaw, dev made a content, and nobody is interested in it. No matter how much you want to "protect your friends", it's hard to deny that dev make a content nobody want to do is design flaw.

Long time ago SE made same mistake in FFXIV by having garuda weapon same IL as Titan weapon, but titan 10 times harder to beat than garuda. Then have Coil T5 weapon same IL as relic+1, but Coil T5 weapon 100 times harder to obtain than relic +1. So majority of players don't bother to farm titan weapon nor interested in Coil T5, because the reward/effort ratio isn't right. They fixed that in the end. If it's not a design flaw, why'd they fix it?

Real life interactions I agree with, but, how do real life interactions translate into there needing to be super powerful gear only 1% of players can get? That, I do not understand.

It's a motivation. It's human nature that ppl need a goal/motivation to feel satisfied. Not everyone can afford a house, not everyone can afford a ferrari, but some people make it a goal to work hard to obtain those, an feel fulfilled when their goal is accomplished.

A game with no goal to strive for, and no one interested in challenging the hardest content is design flaw all over. I did not say casuals should not play and should be kicked from all content at all. But I believe a good, meaningful RPG should have meaningful , epic goal to fight for, and the time and effort invested in accomplishing such goal should be rewarded. Remember the time when you play single player RPGs, some ppl would spend hours and hours to grind character to super high level so they can beat secret boss for secret weapon?

That's the reward for the effort. Only then it creates meaningful and fun roleplaying experience. It's been done since forever, been done before MMO exist when we all play single player RPG, it's more like a golden rule of game design, not another way around.

If you want challenge, you can have it, if you want rewards, you can have it, if you want rewards only you can get, no, you cant have it. My views on it all are as simple and clear as that.

It's not about whether I want reward only I can get or not.

If I log on, ask my friend/LS "Anyone want to do DM very difficult?". Then everyone reply: "YES I WANT TO DO IT I WANT X item, this item is EPIC", then it's a good design.

If they reply "Mehhhh, I'd rather do normal with 10 ppl", then it's fail content. Nothing can deny the fact that a content nobody want to do=fail.

[Demonjustin]

Nothing can deny the fact that a content nobody want to do=fail.

My similar to my point, thats why I don't want another AV or Legion, I do not want super hard content with rewards that almost nobody will ever do, yes, not wanting to do it is a step above that but only a little, having content no one can do even if they want to is still fairly bad. As for it being incentive to keep going up the ladder like buying a house or ferrari, there are tons of things in this game to strive for, your talking about adding things that are so difficult it challenges the best, which means every player not at the top has basically no chance to get this, your own FFXI Bill Gates, which as I have said is something I do not like. I am not saying we should all be perfectly equal or gear be handed out, I am saying we should all be able to get what we want with proper work even if it takes us longer but get to do an easier battle, like with these AAs.

I am a RDM, I get no invites to AAs, I have been to 2 EV runs since its release, nothing more, I will very likely have to solo my gear from each and every one of them which to my understanding has a very low drop rate on Very Easy, so I am screwed, but, I can still get it, just takes more time, I have the opportunity though rather than having to complete Divine Might on Very Hard to have a shot at it for instance. To me, when everyone has that equal opportunity its a better game than when only a few select players are truly capable of pulling out a win on content for its rewards.

Either way, I'm done.

[Afania]

I am a RDM, I get no invites to AAs, I have been to 2 EV runs since its release, nothing more, I will very likely have to solo my gear from each and every one of them which to my understanding has a very low drop rate on Very Easy, so I am screwed, but, I can still get it,just takes more time, I have the opportunity though rather than having to complete Divine Might on Very Hard to have a shot at it for instance. To me, when everyone has that equal opportunity its a better game than when only a few select players are truly capable of pulling out a win on content for its rewards.

Either way, I'm done.

Nobody wanted to do legion because legion gear sucked, on top of filter out none rag DDs at that time due to several design. Plenty of groups/LS can clear it easily with no issue. What made legion a fail is not because it's "too hard", but because the drop is not worth the effort. That's back to my original point. If legion reward worth the effort, you'd see more ppl start gearing/lving legion friendly job, get a group and try to beat it.

You're right about players with only RDM leveled does not have equal chance as players with bandwagon DD or WHM or BRD leveled when it comes to getting gears. But you're the one who choose to play RDM only. You picked the job, and even if you pick the wrong job you always have chance to click job change button and gear another one in a few days of work. If you refuse to do so and insist to choose none-bandwagon jobs, then you can't really complain about the lack of equal opportunity because it's your own choice.

Real lack of equal opportunity exist irl, where someone may born into a poor family and lacks resource to have good education. In FFXI everyone is equal enough IMO.

[Demonjustin]

Nobody wanted to do legion because legion gear sucked, on top of filter out none rag DDs at that time due to several design. Plenty of groups/LS can clear it easily with no issue. What made legion a fail is not because it's "too hard", but because the drop is not worth the effort. That's back to my original point. If legion reward worth the effort, you'd see more ppl start gearing/lving legion friendly job, get a group and try to beat it.

Legion was to hard for the majority of people to complete, not that it is, at the time it was created until Adoulin came out it had some decent pieces especially the Abjuration pieces, I went with a few groups, never won, most people I know/knew both casual and in higher endgame linkshells did not complete it till after Adoulin. It was not a matter of lack of reward, people just did not have the SMNs and Stun SCHs to complete it and couldn't win without those because it was to difficult for the majority.

Real lack of equal opportunity exist irl, where someone may born into a poor family and lacks resource to have good education. In FFXI everyone is equal enough IMO.

Once again, the game should not be like real life, if you want real life, step away from your PC/XBox/PS2 and you will end up right where you want to be.

[sabrtooth]

Afania,
Why you so free?
Where my pluton???
Please find people and start to organise some shark run so I can get my clear when I reached home today

Back to topic.
Yeah, I am a RNG. always will be but this is a MMO so we got to suck it in and do lot of A stuff to get the B stuff we wanted.

lvl bst and dnc to farm dienamis for my relic gun
nin sell abyssea ki to fund the gun
SE upgrade the relic to 119
lvl mnk to get a chance to do delve and whatever content that is MNK ONRY that also drop @#$%^%^& pluton for my gun
Ironically, I got tojil OAT, sword and helm.............:S

Such is life.......

[Afania]

Legion was to hard for the majority of people to complete, not that it is, at the time it was created until Adoulin came out it had some decent pieces especially the Abjuration pieces, I went with a few groups, never won, most people I know/knew both casual and in higher endgame linkshells did not complete it till after Adoulin. It was not a matter of lack of reward, people just did not have the SMNs and Stun SCHs to complete it and couldn't win without those because it was to difficult for the majority.

Skill wise legion wasn't harder than delve at all, you stun zerg in both delve and legion. If PUG can win delve then PUG could have win legion. Nobody did legion PUG because the reward wasn't worth it. I cleared it back when it was hard so I know how it was like....easier than delve pre-skill update IMO.

You just pointed out the main reason why it's hard: Because most ppl had no right job to make an ally with higher success rate. When legion was out it favors rag DD over everything else due to crit-hit- trait and high evasion, at that point of time it was extremely hard to find a party of rag. Most ppl had empy MNK(which was the bandwagon job at that time due to Abyssea) and it's much harder for a pt of empy MNK to deal enough dmg to get win. On top of decent SCH hard to find.

And why was right job so hard to find at that time? Because nobody want to lv a job just for it due to terrible reward/effort ratio.

Plenty of ppl leveled SCH GEO MNK for delve because the reward is good, plenty of ppl leveled MNK NIN WAR WHM for Abyssea because the reward is good too. Nobody level SMN SCH DRK for legion. The drop sucked and you don't really need to win to get majority of the item. I got my body abj from prov watcher and other abj from mini boss drop.

Once again, the game should not be like real life, if you want real life, step away from your PC/XBox/PS2 and you will end up right where you want to be.

It's just your personal preference. If I want "game that's nothing like life", I'd just play single player games or other MMO titles. For me FFXI is fun is mainly because it's more like a world and less like other games.

[Demonjustin]

Skill wise legion wasn't harder than delve at all, you stun zerg in both delve and legion. If PUG can win delve then PUG could have win legion. Nobody did legion PUG because the reward wasn't worth it. I cleared it back when it was hard so I know how it was like....easier than delve pre-skill update IMO.

In Delve most mobs have 1 or 2 moves that will kill you, or slow you down, and they have exploitable weaknesses on top of the ability to be stuck with Enfeebling Magic quite easily. Legion had monsters where most moves would kill you, they had no real weaknesses unless you count stunning and Perfect Defense as 'weaknesses', and Enfeebling was not really an option from what I know for a long time. For not being harder than Delve, just off the basics, it seems to me that you're wrong in that claim. I mean if you go so barebones in your description of the event as to say its just a stun zerg, then yes, they are, but there are more things to it than that.

You just pointed out the main reason why it's hard: Because most ppl had no right job to make an ally with higher success rate. When legion was out it favors rag DD over everything else due to crit-hit- trait and high evasion, at that point of time it was extremely hard to find a party of rag. Most ppl had empy MNK(which was the bandwagon job at that time due to Abyssea) and it's much harder for a pt of empy MNK to deal enough dmg to get win. On top of decent SCH hard to find.

And why was right job so hard to find at that time? Because nobody want to lv a job just for it due to terrible reward/effort ratio.

Plenty of ppl leveled SCH GEO MNK for delve because the reward is good, plenty of ppl leveled MNK NIN WAR WHM for Abyssea because the reward is good too. Nobody level SMN SCH DRK for legion. The drop sucked and you don't really need to win to get majority of the item. I got my body abj from prov watcher and other abj from mini boss drop.

I dont think its so much that people didn't want to level a new job for a terrible reward/effort ratio, I think people simply were not willing to make a Relic to participate in a single event. I knew a ton of people who made OAT GS, OAT PA, Empyrean Weapons, and so on, just to get into VW, and while you can argue its reward were great, it had awful drop rates, far worse than anything else. The point I am trying to make with this though is that people were willing to go out and work on a job when it didn't require a Relic to be made for a single event, and look at MNK today, its the same way.

Today, people gear up MNK, its fast, easy, has an easily accessible weapon that dominates the field and opens access to nearly all events, people level it because of that. People also do SCH today where as they didn't before, this is true to a point, but your not including the fact its easier to gear now than it was back then too, back when Legion was meaningful SCH gear was harder to come by for stunning, now we have Haste on all mage pieces of gear on top of Fast Cast on a few pieces, INT as well as Magic Accuracy thrown all over, blah blah blah. The ease of which people can come by the gear they need for a job is a prime detail that takes part in them gearing it.

I am sure if you told someone that to do an event you needed 6 Mythic PUPs, randomly, for whatever reason, but it had the best items in the game from it, far above everything else, hardly anyone would care or do it who did not already have a Mythic for PUP, who would go out and make a Mythic just for that one event? To me, thats how the whole Ragnarok argument sounds, or SCH, talking about people going out and gearing up a job with some difficult/annoying/expensive gear, just to partake in a single event.

Lastly as for the Abjurations not needing Legion, you can only get Honors from Legion or the event they gave them out from, and the Head/Feet Abjurations were only obtainable from Legion, which in some sets were great, specifically the ones that come to my mind are Iaso and Spurinna which had the best Cure Head/Feet, and the best Enfeebling Feet at the time both covered, great rewards. I could list off the other things like the Blood Pact Earring or Snapshot Feet which had no alternative for those stats in that slot really but you likely know of those already with your experience so I leave it at that.

[Afania]

In Delve most mobs have 1 or 2 moves that will kill you, or slow you down, and they have exploitable weaknesses on top of the ability to be stuck with Enfeebling Magic quite easily. Legion had monsters where most moves would kill you, they had no real weaknesses unless you count stunning and Perfect Defense as 'weaknesses', and Enfeebling was not really an option from what I know for a long time. For not being harder than Delve, just off the basics, it seems to me that you're wrong in that claim. I mean if you go so barebones in your description of the event as to say its just a stun zerg, then yes, they are, but there are more things to it than that.

Exploitable weakness doesn't really make the game easier, more like it's required to use if you want to kill it in short time.

Not every legion NM has 1 shotting move, besides maybe death prophet. Also because ppl don't use MNK/mantra rotation strat at that time, and less DD have proper HP/DT- set. So DDs were more squishy.

Legion also doesn't need to deal with mayhem from shark(PUG still wipe to this), ppl fuck up on mata(before skill update fuck up on mata=no time to win for most groups), and so on.

I was like 1/4 or 5 to get my first Mul win. My LS was around that number for morimar/foret 6NM delve before skill update and never beat Ceizak until combat skill added to the weapon. Numbers don't lie, if legion was so much harder than delve pre-update it'd be 1/10 for mul and 1/2 for delve.

Delve is only easier now because of skill update and gears getting stronger after each update, on top of everyone and their mother spammed it to death and get very used to it. It wasn't easy at all back in 2013/06 and 07.