New 1 hours

[Demon6324236]

I'm going to have to side with SNK on this one Demon. I believe your vision and SE's vision of RDM are not in sync and I don't believe SE is in the wrong here. RDM is still a very viable job to play but in a different style than it once was.

To this I will always respond, if the job is viable, what can it do that a SCH with proper gear can not? SCHs have Cure IV like RDM, but a much higher skill under the proper Art, Regen V, and Weather boosts which make their Cure IVs as strong as a Cure V, far more powerful than RDM or WHM can naturally get their Cure IVs to be. SCHs have Weather boosts for their nukes as well, which push them above us yet again, and if that was not enough, they have the best DoT spells in the game, and better access to nuking gear, especially in the case of Staves right now where a RDM's best staff is Lehbrailg +1 with proper Augments, and it does not beat out Atinian, or come close to Mythic. SCH has better Enhancing spells, able to access every party able spell RDM has from using it as a sub-job basically and adding on top of it a spell for Regain, Weathers which can give the same kind of effects as our Gain-Spells, and the ability to AoE all buffs basically, let alone Embrava. Then we come to Enfeebling, our so called specialty, where a SCH/RDM can match every spell we have, with less potency if we have IIs merited and count them into the mix here, but SCH is only missing 2 things, Gravity II, and Addle. Gravity is the same as Gravity II except the EVA penalty is 20 EVA better for II, a small boost, and Addle is able to be cast by WHM, a job sure to join in any event.

The point of all of this is that so far as magic goes, there is nothing SCH is not better at really. It can land Enfeebling Magic better than RDM with less potency, that's the best thing RDM has going for it, less accurate but more potent Enfeebles. I want someone, anyone, to tell me exactly what it is RDM can do better besides those, because I have yet to find it.

One of RDM's greatest advantage over other mages is speed and it's durability. With these together, RDM can survive in most places a normal mage cannot.

This is not quiet true. A SCH/RDM with Arts up has roughly the same as 25% Fast Cast, RDM sub gives 15, Arts gives 10, a RDM99 has 30%, speed is just barely better, and hardly a matter of importance with today's level of Fast Cast gear available, so if that is what you mean by speed, its not really a point of true strength against our largest competitor. So far as durability, I fail to see how we are any better than a SCH really. We have PDT gear, most of it is the same as SCH, the only real pieces we have a SCH does not are the PDT Sword, and Genbu's Shield, with Flume Belt. That might impress if the Terra Staff did not have 20% PDT, 1% less than Shikargar/Genbu's, and took no real work to get by compare to the two. The belt might seem nice but it can be replaced easily too. Past that, we both use Gendewitha/Hagondes for PDT/DEF gear, with no real difference in our sets, our survival from Protect, Shell, and Phalanx, are hardly accountable either, since SCH can match those as well. Lastly it comes down to Regen V vs our F rating in Shield, since I am sure the thought of using a Shield instead of a staff makes it sound more defensive, but blocking almost never happens because our skill is pathetic, and Regen V allows a SCH so much HP/Tick that it massively helps their survival in a situation. Overall, both of those two things, SCH is better at when played well.

I still see RDM going in to delve all the time as a Silencer/Sleeper/Mage&Tank Supporter. Just because they have some fancy swords doesnt mean they will be using them all the time.

No, but the Swords are not really important in that situation either, and the swords are an underutilized resource that stops us from bringing anything unique to the table. You mentioned RDM as a Silencer, Sleeper, Mage and Tank Supporter, but I fail to understand what we do here that SCH can not. SCH has more Magic Accuracy than RDM has, even if they had the same amount, Silence is easy to land on all but the Peiste, the Eft it lands easy but the duration is bad, so it needs to be spammed, and that's about the same you get with any RDM. Sleeping things is easier for a SCH, RDM needs /SCH and Klimaform to have a chance at being more accurate with Enfeeblings than a SCH is, and its the best sub for RDM anyways unless you need Stun or Elemental Seal, so chances are a RDM will not have Sleepga, and will not want to waste a Stratagem on Manifestation to throw one out. On the other hand, SCH has an abundance of Stratagems and their recast is about 30% of what a RDM/SCH's is, which makes sleeping much easier. Supporting mages may be a bit weaker, sure, less Refresh, but here is the question, what is Refresh for? The SCH/BLMs do not need it, they hardly spend MP as it is, and the MP they do spend is likely recovered by their own Sublimation, or is easily recovered by the 3 Refresh a SCH/RDM provides, GEOs need it to cast their spells and heal themselves, casting their spells is a valid reason, but it should not be much an issue in reality so long as they are not healing themselves, and SCH heals better than RDM as I covered before, especially with Regen, so this is a mute point. Lastly you have Tank support, where its the same as mage really, with the only stand out thing about RDM being they can Phalanx without being near the tank, and not really anything else.

Look at Whm... for years they have decent clubs and a great WS to boot... yet when did they ever have the chance to run up to use them?

WHM has never had a history for being a melee job, and the situation is hardly the same. SCH does what RDM does, in every magic category. If WHM had an all magic, staff only counterpart with better abilities and spells in almost every case, would WHM be used? The answer is likely no, what's the point? But for RDM, melee is the only thing we have that stands out from SCH, and unless they revamped RDM from the ground up and made it a full on mage while giving us a lot more Enhancing Magic, full party targeting, powerful buffs, and a full revamp to all Enfeebles, it just would not make RDM useful next to SCH which does our magic based jobs so easily.

I don't mean to tear you down or belittle you, I'm simply elaborating on the point SNK might have been trying to make in their post.

I do not mean to do those to you either, this is a subject I feel strongly about in this game, and I feel like SNK, and anyone else who really thinks RDM should be left alone, or people should not complain, are in the wrong. I tried to highlight the reasons in this post, explaining why each thing is not in RDM's favor, and giving points to RDM in the few things it is better at, but the evidence is far in SCH's favor of being the better job, so much so it makes RDM hardly useful.

I see people take RDM to Delve, I am happy, I get to participate, but it does not stop the voice in the back of my head telling me a SCH/RDM could do the job better, because I know they can, its fact, and even though people do not use it often or at least do not shout for it often, does not change the fact. Its only a matter of time till people realize these things, to me, that's all it is, and while I can be useful now, it wont last forever, and my use now is more out of a lack of knowledge on the part of leaders, than it is a real use for my job, I sadly know that, and it eats away at me every time I join a party.

We all have a favorite job and we all want to see it do the best they can to our personal vision. But in the end, it's not our vision to control. We simply play with the ball SE provides us with. If they say it's fine if the ball only bounces 15 feet when we want it to bounce 20, who's to say they are wrong? It's a game they provide us with, it's up to us to make the game happen and enjoyable.

I can not live with that ideal anymore. I was shunned by people for trying to make use of my melee, take pride in the one thing RDM could do so much better than SCH that set it apart, and many people did not invite me. I got by only being invited by friends or linkshell members who took pity on me, its for that reason I made an Almace, and later my Excalibur, working hard to make my RDM better in those fields, farming the best melee sets possible, even if it cluttered my inventory horribly, and so on. I worked with what SE gave me and tried to make the game enjoyable, making a Relic was by far the most stressful thing I did in the game because it was basically the only thing I had left I could do to try getting my job invited to things. Once it was done, I did get more invites, people saw my determination to make it work and let me come. The thing is, I am tired of working to try making a game more enjoyable. I should not have to work for hours upon hours today to make my Excalibur level 119 just so I can be turned down by the grand majority of people doing things like Delve and such who will never take my job as a melee, only a mage, where I get to know constantly that I am mediocre.

I can not believe it is so hard to ask for this job to be improved and be understood by people, how many people will argue its fine or that its dead forever, I fail to understand it.

[Demon6324236]

I see RDM's place perfectly. My Linkshell loves a damn good RDM in delve. The people in our shell who play RDM do a damn good job with the tools they have and not the tools you think they should have.

You not once explained what RDM can do that SCH can not, till you can provide me an argument that actually explains why RDM is better than SCH/RDM, why it had a use, this argument will mean nothing. I know people take RDM to Delve, I know people who do it, but it does not change the fact that the majority of SCHs I know have Atinian and the ability to do my job just as well as I do, and that has never changed, at best RDM has a slight upper hand right now with Buramenk'ah, and that's at best, as soon as the 119 Staff comes out there will be no exceptions, SCH will flat out be better at Enfeebling than RDM is. No matter how good a job your RDMs do with what they have, it does not change the fact that the same person would do better as a SCH/RDM doing the same job, if they know how to play SCH.

[Zephrose]

You not once explained what RDM can do that SCH can not, till you can provide me an argument that actually explains why RDM is better than SCH/RDM, why it had a use, this argument will mean nothing. I know people take RDM to Delve, I know people who do it, but it does not change the fact that the majority of SCHs I know have Atinian and the ability to do my job just as well as I do, and that has never changed, at best RDM has a slight upper hand right now with Buramenk'ah, and that's at best, as soon as the 119 Staff comes out there will be no exceptions, SCH will flat out be better at Enfeebling than RDM is. No matter how good a job your RDMs do with what they have, it does not change the fact that the same person would do better as a SCH/RDM doing the same job, if they know how to play SCH.

I know I said I would never post in this thread again but man... you are just too dramatic not to respond too. HA!

It really sounds like you need to pick up Blue Mage or Scholar... Red Mage has been in this slump for years. It does have it's strengths that you don't seem to see. In it's current pool of jobs, Sch might just be the upper tier of jobs to play in it's Magic Role. And that goes the same for Blu in it's Melee/Magic fusion role.

All I can say at this point is...

[Demon6324236]

It really sounds like you need to pick up Blue Mage or Scholar... Red Mage has been in this slump for years. It does have it's strengths that you don't seem to see. In it's current pool of jobs, Sch might just be the upper tier of jobs to play in it's Magic Role. And that goes the same for Blu in it's Melee/Magic fusion role.

It has strengths I don't see, yet, no one has the ability to state. If I wanted to play BLU or SCH, I would, fact is, I do not, I like RDM, I built my Excalibur and Almace for RDM, there is no reason why RDM can not be fixed, none at all, other than people ignorant enough to think its fine as it is and SE's lack of belief that it needs changing, the former likely fuels the latter as well which only makes things worse in the end.

I say again though, if you can state the advantages and strengths RDM has which makes it worth bringing to events and not just a job you bring because it can get the job done even though other jobs do it better, please, be my guest, explain them. Till then, arguing RDM has strengths I am missing is a pointless argument, I have played the job for years, I have played it primarily over every job, and I have tried to make it work for every situation and in every way I can, and yet I fail to see this mystical power which is so cleverly hidden within the job that makes it fine as it is.

[Zephrose]

My statement still stands. It doesn't seem you see the strengths of Rdm that others might see. And the reason this might be is clear in your continuous debate. The job is not curbed to your liking or vision. If you want to make Rdm more front line hybrid, go for it. But the game is only going to give you so many tools to do so. This has been the case since it's existence in FFXI. I simply pointed out Whm in the same light because it has some interesting tools that it may never fully use, similar to Rdm. This goes for Brd as well.

I'm not going to state my points if you already know the job so well. If you have such knowledge, then I suggest you use it.

And lastly, this is a service you pay for. Much like going into an amusement park. You pay a fee to get in an have fun with the services offered. If you don't like the service, there are plenty of other parks to choose from. You wouldn't expect Disney Land to change a ride because you thought it wasn't "Fun" enough just because you paid. They'd simply tell you sorry to hear your feedback and wish you a better time.

Enough trolling for the day. Have fun.

[Demon6324236]

My statement still stands. It doesn't seem you see the strengths of Rdm that others might see.

I'm not going to state my points if you already know the job so well. If you have such knowledge, then I suggest you use it.

This is the entire issue with the debate here about RDM's use. One side says the job sucks and needs to be fixed, providing ideas and ways it can be as well as examples of the issues the job faces. The other side says the job is fine, complains about people complaining about it, and refuses to give examples of its power that leads them to believe its good in the first place. If you can not provide examples of how its good, better than the other options and not just a mediocre replacement, then your argument has no backbone, your just sayings its good without any reasons or facts as to why it is.

And lastly, this is a service you pay for. Much like going into an amusement park. You pay a fee to get in an have fun with the services offered. If you don't like the service, there are plenty of other parks to choose from. You wouldn't expect Disney Land to change a ride because you thought it wasn't "Fun" enough just because you paid. They'd simply tell you sorry to hear your feedback and wish you a better time.

Disney Land also would not keep a ride the way it is if at all when no one likes it, if no one rides that ride, its nothing more than a waste of space, in this case, some people do ride that ride, but so few people do and there is another ride right next to it which 90% of the people riding them agree, is better.

[Twille]

What exactly do you want from RDM that you aren't getting?

[Zephrose]

Rdm Points:
Solo-ability
Shadow Tanking
Easy access to cap fast cast
Quick Response crowd control
Quick Response support
Quick Response Stun lock
Longer lasting enfeebles
Easier access to PDT and MDT gear

Background:
Since Rdm's haydays of years past, Rdm has been primarily a solo mage. What I mean by that is, they are selfish mages. A lot of their spells were self targeting and not share-able. I'm sure you know. But since the addition of Sch, Rdm has been able to turn that around. They added a party flavor to Rdm that wasnt once there. This also came shortly after they nerf Rdm on some of their solo aspects such as kiting and the like. Basically, they wanted Rdm to get back into the mix.

Pre-75s, Rdm/Sch was so top notch, it was insane. Salvage was easier with it. Low man anything was easier with it. Post-75 days, Whm took over. Rdm was not up to snuff for curing such large amounts of HP in abyssea, had limited access to procs and for obvious reasons no DD. Since then, the transition has moved to Sch with it's great gear selection and constant ask to stun with strategems. Yes, Sch can help support and help cure and help enfeeble but really in those runs they have a set role with no deviation. That's where Rdm comes in. To facilitate those needs to help support the group. It's almost like the times when Rdm was very helpful for Kirin runs or Jailer pops or Sandworm fights or what have you. The very nature of Rdm is jack of all trades, master of none. If you ask them to make better over another job, they would be breaking that core aspect.

Rdms, at a time, use to be the solo kings. I know, I was up there with them. I use to solo stuff on Rdm and farm pops or items to use later. It was fun. When they broke it, I was angry. But I found another way with support low man tanking. Rdm/nin was and still is pretty bad ass. But it doesn't get use today because there is no need for it anymore. There's really no need to solo anything on Rdm old school when you can just take a DD up to it and blow it up.

Rdm play aspect is always changing, just like all 22 of the other jobs. It's the evolution of the game and what the developers put into it. Yelling and screaming about how you don't like the job and want it the way YOU want it, isn't going to make them change anything. My analogy of the amusement park was just that. If you wanted into Disney land and told them you didnt like space mountain because it didnt have all the loops or falls you wanted, they would laugh and tell you to go somewhere else. But enough people like the ride to not warrant a change and so they dont touch it. This is no different.

Do you realize that really 1% of the people playing the game post on these forums? And maybe 20% of those playing come to read this bu*$#&@t? Those numbers might have grown since the loss of players but really, there's not a ot of people complaining about Rdm.

And not to say the pebble can not move the mountain if it really tried but in this case, SE's statistics will be the only proving grounds to whether the job is failing or not. And to tell you the truth, this is the last place they are looking for statistics.

[Demon6324236]

Rdm Points:
Solo-ability
Shadow Tanking
Easy access to cap fast cast
Quick Response crowd control
Quick Response support
Quick Response Stun lock
Longer lasting enfeebles
Easier access to PDT and MDT gear

Solo is great, but so many jobs can solo now days and some better than RDM, not really a good role to fill either when no content worth doing today can be soloed except a few NMs outside of Delve maybe, about it.

Shadow tanking is really not to great, the only time we get to /NIN is solo, so really its the same as above all over again.

Easy to cap Fast Cast is like saying WHM can easily cap cure potency, sure, it can do it easier, that doesn't really make it a good job just for that reason, its just less work to attain the same goal just about every mage can these days, especially in their respective magic field. The next three points fall into this same thing, Quick Response bleh is basically just Fast Cast's effects, that's about it.

Quick Response Stun Lock is funny, SCH Stuns so much better than us without a SP its made CSSing go out of date, people use SCHs now because of that.

Longer lasting enfeebles, unless you mean via Saboteur I don't think we actually get a duration bonus, except maybe our +2 Body, in which case 10% is worth what? 5 seconds? And they take no time to cast so that's not even important really.

Easier access to PDT/MDT gear. For PDT, RDM uses full Gendewitha, Dark Rings, Darkness Earring, Black Earring, Shikargar, Genbu's Shield, Twilight Torque, and Flume Belt, leaving room for Shadow Mantle. Of that list the only 3 pieces a SCH can not use are the Sword, Shield, and Belt, the Sword and Shield are replaced by a staff from the AH, the belt is replaced by a back piece. This leaves our PDT sets different, and SCH actually being easier to cap because they can avoid 2 NMs and an entire series of trials, however they lose out on the Nulls from the Shadow Mantle.

Since Rdm's haydays of years past, Rdm has been primarily a solo mage. What I mean by that is, they are selfish mages. A lot of their spells were self targeting and not share-able. I'm sure you know. But since the addition of Sch, Rdm has been able to turn that around. They added a party flavor to Rdm that wasnt once there. This also came shortly after they nerf Rdm on some of their solo aspects such as kiting and the like. Basically, they wanted Rdm to get back into the mix.

The spells that were single target, were all melee based spells. Enspells, Phalanx, Spikes, all things you make use of on the front lines, and not the back lines, showing the idea of meleeing being meant for the job, a use we never took.

Pre-75s, Rdm/Sch was so top notch, it was insane. Salvage was easier with it. Low man anything was easier with it. Post-75 days, Whm took over. Rdm was not up to snuff for curing such large amounts of HP in abyssea, had limited access to procs and for obvious reasons no DD. Since then, the transition has moved to Sch with it's great gear selection and constant ask to stun with strategems. Yes, Sch can help support and help cure and help enfeeble but really in those runs they have a set role with no deviation. That's where Rdm comes in. To facilitate those needs to help support the group. It's almost like the times when Rdm was very helpful for Kirin runs or Jailer pops or Sandworm fights or what have you. The very nature of Rdm is jack of all trades, master of none. If you ask them to make better over another job, they would be breaking that core aspect.

I have said many times on these forums, though possibly not this thread, I do not want a boost to our healing, we are as good as we should be, and we do not need a boost to our nuking, its perfect as it is, the 3rd part to it is melee, which we are constantly denied from both devs and players alike. Past that we need a boost to the amount of Enfeebling magic in the game, and their potency, to make them worth using more than just a small safety net. What I mean is, if Paralyze had a chance to stop TPs or something powerful, it might be better, more useful, but most enfeebles right now are hardly powerful, most are hardly worth casting at all, like Blind, which outside of special mobs has no use because Accuracy is never an issue for NMs, not outside of Abyssea at least.

Rdms, at a time, use to be the solo kings. I know, I was up there with them. I use to solo stuff on Rdm and farm pops or items to use later. It was fun. When they broke it, I was angry. But I found another way with support low man tanking. Rdm/nin was and still is pretty bad ass. But it doesn't get use today because there is no need for it anymore. There's really no need to solo anything on Rdm old school when you can just take a DD up to it and blow it up.

Part of the issue. RDM needs some DD aspects to it, the third part of the jack of all trades, if we could cast and melee at the same time that would solve the issue real well, we could melee, deal DMG, and still do some supporting, and it would fit with the idea of the job, but to cast while meleeing is a huge DPS drop, and to ignore out magic side outright makes it pointless to come RDM in the first place.

Rdm play aspect is always changing, just like all 22 of the other jobs. It's the evolution of the game and what the developers put into it. Yelling and screaming about how you don't like the job and want it the way YOU want it, isn't going to make them change anything. My analogy of the amusement park was just that. If you wanted into Disney land and told them you didnt like space mountain because it didnt have all the loops or falls you wanted, they would laugh and tell you to go somewhere else. But enough people like the ride to not warrant a change and so they dont touch it. This is no different.

I know a lot of RDMs, I know hardly any who say the job is fine as it is, who get to play it often without either being solo or having to make their own parties just to get an invite. As for me saying I don't like how the job is, tell me, if we don't like it and say nothing, how will things ever change? They wont, they have no chance of changing when people are silent, if we yell and scream we want changes and they do nothing, you know what, tried, failed, but at least I didn't sit in a corner complaining about those who spoke their minds on how the job was rotting away.

Do you realize that really 1% of the people playing the game post on these forums? And maybe 20% of those playing come to read this bu*$#&@t? Those numbers might have grown since the loss of players but really, there's not a ot of people complaining about Rdm.

Most people gave up on the job already, they saw the massive amount of horrible choices made for the job and how things never changed for it really, it always just got screwed, the SP2 was so heavily opposed by every single person, not a single person I have seen was in favor of it, at best, they had the wait and see attitude that maybe it wouldn't suck, but no one thought it was actually good. People did rise up, people did complain, and we got no where, but if your ignoring that fact, the fact people did speak out about it, then I have no idea what your expecting.

[Demon6324236]

What exactly do you want from RDM that you aren't getting?

A job with a use that can not be filled so easily by another job.

To be more specific I suppose in this case, changes to the job to allow melee to be useful, more gear like BLU has so we seem like a real hybrid, a trait that lets us melee while casting, and unique enfeebles with the inability to be cast by anyone besides RDM, and enough potency to make RDM worth bringing, even if not necessary, by easing the fight through restrictions on the monster in question.