Summoner Suggestions

[Babekeke]

And I prefer /whm (cure 4) over /sch...

Hmmm... with cure potency being highly biased towards healing magic skill, a light arts cure 3 from /SCH isn't much worse than a cure 4 from /whm, you know? And it's way less MP, and way less enmity.

Each to their own, but I find /SCH to be the best sub for most mages in most situations.

[dasva]

Hmmm... with cure potency being highly biased towards healing magic skill, a light arts cure 3 from /SCH isn't much worse than a cure 4 from /whm, you know? And it's way less MP, and way less enmity.

It's impossible for it to be not that much worse in terms of curing power and be way less enmity since enmity is based on amount cured for those. But yeah the real benefit from /whm is being able to haste random DDs and idk barspells?

[Infidi]

SMN/NIN or gtfo. D: J/k J/k.... I usually use /RDM. But I'm lazy with MP management or hardwired to it, I guess, so I like the little bit of extra MP Refresh gives. Also, I guess, Convert if doing a 1hr? :P

[Archades]

/whm erase has saved me more times than i care to admit, i like sch but sublimation is only really benefit from having it (from my play experience). Oh yeah whm has divine seal, saved me too many times as well. Ihave never /rdm for stuff yet XD

does the occult accumen from the piece of equip work for jobs that dont have it? might make the time getting Myrkr worthwhile for when they make empy WS unlock-able.

oh ya when it comes to the spirits i only use fire and thunder during events if i need to get mp back up but want a pet out. they only have 3 spells they use. AM, tier V, and ele-debuff. so 2/3 chance for an offensive spell.

[Babekeke]

It's impossible for it to be not that much worse in terms of curing power and be way less enmity since enmity is based on amount cured for those. But yeah the real benefit from /whm is being able to haste random DDs and idk barspells?

I had always been under the impression that Cure 3 was much less enmity for Cure 4, but after reading through the enimty testing, it's only 5 and 6 that are different.

If you need to haste DDs, we have hastega. If you need to use a barspell, the SMN shouldn't be the one doing it. A WHM using barspell can get well over 200 resistance. We can barely get 100.

/whm erase has saved me more times than i care to admit, i like sch but sublimation is only really benefit from having it (from my play experience).

/SCH gets erase too^^

The real benefits from using /SCH lie in the dark arts. Impact. Drain (nice little bit of cheap damage). T1 nukes if you have a decent staff (the eft NM in rala skirmish is weak to magic. I was nuking thunder 1 for over 650 damage on SMN).

Also, being able to AOE buffs, or status removal is a godsend.

[Archades]

yes sch get erase but it takes light arts and addendum white and you cant be switching between it and dark constantly.
its just simpler to use on /whm. If im just gonna sit on light arts and mp not a big issue, better to just go /whm for lack of complication to use.

the aoe buffs are useful when in parties but i rarely party w/ people so i dont factor that as a major benefit.

For me /whm is default anywhere, but I /sch when i feel appropriate.

[dasva]

I had always been under the impression that Cure 3 was much less enmity for Cure 4, but after reading through the enimty testing, it's only 5 and 6 that are different.

If you need to haste DDs, we have hastega. If you need to use a barspell, the SMN shouldn't be the one doing it. A WHM using barspell can get well over 200 resistance. We can barely get 100.

True but it's not as good. Slow overwriting, people out of range, dispels will kinda eat hastega. Plus I'd rather my smn put up other unique buffs instead of anything anyone /rdm or /whm can do. Barspells I'll buy if you need them it's more of a gravy.

I forgot stona.

Either way it's rather situational based on needs. Both subs have their purposes. Really need to evaluate the needs of the event and what others are bringing to the table

[Babekeke]

While we're at it, any of you ever use impact? I'm not sure what a fully unresisted damage/duration are like on SCH or BLM, but as smn/sch it seems 50/50 whether it lasts for 10 seconds or 1 minute.

[FaeQueenCory]

Never used impact, and I agree that /sch does offer more utility...

But the reason I prefer whm over it is partially cure4+divine seal.... and majorly teleports.
Seeing as how smn only recently got end-game love (WKR) I'm on it mostly solo or with a small group of friends.
So I be teleporting all day long lol

/rdm offers convert, refresh, and phalanx. /sch offers the ability to actually cast those black magic spells in your list as /rdm decently. and /whm offers mobility and more curing than /sch.

TBH, MP hasn't been an issue since 75 era... so none of these are any better or worse than the other at 99.
It's just personal taste.
And I like that personal taste matters to smns for their sub job.

EDIT2: Oh! also /whm gives you access to all the staff WSs. Less useful in no-one-does-abyssea-anymore today.... but it's a factor.

[FaeQueenCory]

I normally never double post like this.... but seeing as one was a part of that /job tangent... I'll do it anyways.

I think you guys misunderstood my mana efficiency statement. I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying about mp or using BPs every cooldown etc but for me that's missing the point about BPs in general. For me that's like saying you have a problem with a THF's sneak attack timer because all their damage comes from sneak attack. I interpret the BPs being on a fairly long cooldown as an indication from SE they don't want them to be used on every single mob but then when you look at the damage that isn't coming from BPs, pet AA and Spirits, they're obviously better which sends a bit of a mixed message about the job and the role BPs are meant to take which results in people like you guys just wanting them to not half arse the BPs, which is obviously completely understandable. But again for me that is then missing the point of summoner in relation to a Blm, for example, and you end up ignoring other equally, or should be imo, aspects of the job. If you really feel that way about the BP timers then maybe, imho, you should just play sch, blm etc that has no such restrictions on their burst damage.

Whatthewhat?
Ok... you lost me... and quite possibly.... I think you misunderstand the mechanical ideology of the BPs.
Let us look to the dark days of when smn first existed... RotZ days.
You had a BP timer.
One.
You got to have an avatar use one ability... support or DD... every 60s.
SE realized that this was dumb so they changed it in.... 2006ish? 2007? Idr when exactly... but it was a while ago.
But from this original format, we can deduce the development concept behind the BPs. (just as how we can deduce how SE believed the job should be played from the AF1 set)

First off, SMN is a DD job. Like BLM it is a Magic-DD, however... SMN also has access to some (formerly) powerful AoE buffs making it a DD-support hybrid. (though firmly in the DD with only a mild case of support. Look at the <75 BPs for that evidence.)
So then, back in the day... how was a DD supposed to deal dmg?
The answer is simple and two fold:
for a magic-DD (BLM) they are supposed to Magic Burst.
But SMN doesn't act like a pure magic-DD... it's only a part of that due to MP being the limiter of its abilities.
The vast majority of SMN's DD BPs (before Merits) are physical. (ignoring cabuncle cause.... he's not a DD Avatar, he's a support Avatar)
Which would then make it more likely that SMN's DD: ie BPs should be compared to the way physical DDs deal damage: WSs.
In the olden days, that would be SCs. Now it's just kinda WSs and self-SCs... but the basic design is still there:
SMN's BPs are equivalent to WSs.
This is why they originally were on one timer, no job can pop out two WSs back to back. (shut up SAM!)
And this is why the timer was 60s. Because that's roughly how long it took to reach 100TP to then use a WS: every 60s.

And this is and was perfectly good design....
However.
The times have changed. ESPECIALLY with Adoulin gear... max gear-haste is soooooo easy to do.
Not to mention the insane amounts of DA and store-TP...
All of this contributes to phys-DDs being able to poop out a WS... roughly every 30s.
You don't even have to be a GOOD phys-DD to do that today either.

And herein lies the problem.
It was erroneous of you to compare BPs to SATA or any other JA... felonious even... because they are the SMN's WSs.
This should be very clear from just looking at the original design of the job. Much like how looking at the fossils of a T-Rex are clear that is was carnivorous.
It's made even MORE clear when you take into account the SMN's AF1 set... because THAT tells us that the devs wanted SMNs to poop out an Avatar, BP, then dismiss... hence why there's so much massive -enmity to the Avatar.

But this is why there is such a unanimous support for -30 cap to BPtimer.
We have seen all other DD classes get more and more fast... They even raised the max haste cap a few years back!
But SMN is kept at 45s...
Which is where everyone else was at 75.
But now... with even MORE haste everywhere... being kept at 75 is just... even more glaring than it was when the level cap was raised to 99.

And I agree with Mokeil: Rude.
Or to put it in your terms: [rude]"Seeing as how you are seemingly incapable of grasping the mechanics of summoner, as you keep talking about 'mixed messages' for how the job should be played.... of which there are none. Maybe you should just go and play some other job... or maybe some other game." [/rude]

When you are the one who doesn't understand something... and then have three people who do understand try and help you understand it... and then you respond to their help by telling them GTFO...
Where I'm from... we cut a bitch for that kind of shenanigan.