Thief Treasure Hunter

[Stompa]

I don't believe SE intended it to be this way. They just designed the job very badly

They didn't design the job anyway. They lifted AD&D "Rogue" class which has existed since 1980~ it was a decades-old job before SE copied it. The steal and backstab and general flightyness of rogues was copied 100% and so were their favoured weapons. SE also borrowed more from Ad&d ; other job classes like pld, attributes like Str Vit etc. and random dice-rolls on to-hit and everything else that is /random in ffxi which is most of it. Many Ad&d players like myself (I been a d&d fan since 1981~) saw Stormreach Online (fail) was an attempt by Ad&d to respond to FFxi, but honestly the last good Ad&d games were the Baldur's Gate series which rocked hard, and were pre FFxi anyway.

[Infidi]

They didn't design the job anyway. They lifted AD&D "Rogue" class which has existed since 1980~ it was a decades-old job before SE copied it. The steal and backstab and general flightyness of rogues was copied 100% and so were their favoured weapons. SE also borrowed more from Ad&d ; other job classes like pld, attributes like Str Vit etc. and random dice-rolls on to-hit and everything else that is /random in ffxi which is most of it. Many Ad&d players like myself (I been a d&d fan since 1981~) saw Stormreach Online (fail) was an attempt by Ad&d to respond to FFxi, but honestly the last good Ad&d games were the Baldur's Gate series which rocked hard, and were pre FFxi anyway.

Planescape: Torment?

[Calatilla]

They didn't design the job anyway. They lifted AD&D "Rogue" class which has existed since 1980~ it was a decades-old job before SE copied it. The steal and backstab and general flightyness of rogues was copied 100% and so were their favoured weapons. SE also borrowed more from Ad&d ; other job classes like pld, attributes like Str Vit etc. and random dice-rolls on to-hit and everything else that is /random in ffxi which is most of it. Many Ad&d players like myself (I been a d&d fan since 1981~) saw Stormreach Online (fail) was an attempt by Ad&d to respond to FFxi, but honestly the last good Ad&d games were the Baldur's Gate series which rocked hard, and were pre FFxi anyway.

Except the rogue class in other AD+D games was a devastating damage dealer, hitting hard and very fast. The rogue in NVN-online is this kind of DD, fast and strong, and can also deal damage from distance.

All D+D rogue classes have had dual-wield from the onset, THF only got it because SE decided to give it to DNC.

I don't think SE based their THF design on Rogue, I think that's more ninja than thief.

[Daemon]

Except the rogue class in other AD+D games was a devastating damage dealer, hitting hard and very fast. The rogue in NVN-online is this kind of DD, fast and strong, and can also deal damage from distance.

All D+D rogue classes have had dual-wield from the onset, THF only got it because SE decided to give it to DNC.

I don't think SE based their THF design on Rogue, I think that's more ninja than thief.

I think the way the DEV team implements jobs, make it only useful for 1 or 2 things to prevent people hopping on to only 1 job the entire game.

Which I think if SE made all jobs useful, eventually it won't matter what job anyone plays because not everybody likes playing 1 job.

Personally I only play Thief for farming, good for doing favors for others when they need TH. Other than that I find the job boring.

[Stompa]

Actually the Rogue class from 1978 D&D all the way through the following 3 decades, was not a damage dealer at all. Originally Rogues in AD&D avoided the battle area entirely and stood in the shadows away from the fight, using slingshots minibows and occasional backstab. The rogue was a support-dd, to help nudge up a few extra hits on the mob while the real DD's tanked and smashed it. The rogue's actual real jobs were lockpicking, ranged attacks (with slings), persuasion/scamming, pickpocketting/pilfering etc. The Rogue had high INT & CHR so he could talk to NPC's on behalf the party and persuade them. This chimes with the original FFxi THF weaponskill - Dancing Edge, which is mainly CHR based.
In any case the poster I was replying to said SE designed THF badly as a DD, and my point really is they just lifted the AD&D Rogue class entirely so SE aren't really to blame if it isnt DD enough or w/e, they were just copying an existing class and hoping ppl would like it. Rogues were feeble DD, they stood in the shadows and watched other people fight while using slingshots shortbows etc. Not DD at all. But Rogue was a cool class, and so is FFxi THF, if you are a roleplayer its a fun job to flesh-out. Also Rogue was useful for lockpicking, backstab ("Sneak-attack" 20 years before FFxi used it) and pilfering ("Steal").
Re; dual-wield, FFxi has subjobs, and since THF wears light armors (same as rogues do) and dies fast, SE had intended you to play the job Thf/Nin with dual-wield and shadows which everyone did since forever. And they did give Thf native DW eventually too.
As for NWN online, I never said FFxi copied that. NWN and some of the other AD&D franchises are not true to the AD&D game that has existed for 30+ years, at all. They are arcade games with an AD&D feel, they are not true AD&D roleplaying games and the rogue class in those games has zero in common with the Rogue ppl played for decades, which was a weak DD.

[Calatilla]

That's because, thanks to poor design, Treasure Hunter is the only use THF has. If you don't need Treasure Hunter you don't need a THF. It isn't difficult to make THF into a DD, not on the scale of a 2-hander but not a million miles behind them, SE just doesn't want to.

[OmnysValefor]

It doesn't really matter where something is sourced from. The community perception now is that it needs to either heal well, stun well, dd well, or there's no point in bringing it. Since Delve bosses don't depend on TH to drop gear, there's not a lot of reason to bring thf.

Based on THAT alone, SE should tweak the job.

[Stompa]

I agree entirely with you. But my only point was the reason THF was the way it was in FFxi release, is they knew how popular Rogue was in the D&D dice/tabletop decades and they wanted to appeal to those millions of players and give them a FFxi version.
As a slight mini-edit to my last post, Ad&d Rogue could inflict catastrophic damage on certain mobs in special situations, but its was never about DPS, it was mainly used if there was an enemy spellcaster, the THF would Hide, creep up on the mage while it was casting its first nuke and try for a critical backstab, which could almost kill the mage if you were lucky. That was a centrepiece strategy. Against enemies wearing heavy armor this was far less effective, and since it relied on not being noticed and being basically a one-shot deal it was never DPS really. But I concede Rogue could inflict huge damage but only as a one-off and only if the enemy didn't see him coming.
SE need to revamp a lot of jobs in FFxi imo, THF, BST, DRG and PLD are the three I think of first. They need to make magian weapon/job more free too so f.ex WAR can use magian swords etc. and patch magians to bring them inline with 2013 weaps. Also in 2006~ (and much more in 2010) SE changed BST from a highly skilled specialised job where you had got Bst75 only if you could play the job inside-out and understood charm-chains and the enemy dynamics of different species. Bst used to be about living on your nerves and if you survived it meant you were highly proficient at Beastmaster. With the change from charm-chains to stoutservant jugpets and mulsums, it became seriously unskilled and you can FC bst 30-99 and step out of the FC with incredibly powerful jugpets without any skill involved. Pup and Smn have to skill their pets, Bst used to have to go into the wilderness and charm mobs for months or years to get high lvl pets, but SE changed Bst so its just an uber pet-job with zero effort involved which is why you see so many RMT bsts these days, they dont lvl Pup automaton skills coz it takes time and time is money right.
But will they fix the long overdue stuff, or correct some of the errors they made to existing jobs, I hope so.

[Daemon]

It doesn't really matter where something is sourced from. The community perception now is that it needs to either heal well, stun well, dd well, or there's no point in bringing it. Since Delve bosses don't depend on TH to drop gear, there's not a lot of reason to bring thf.

Based on THAT alone, SE should tweak the job.

Yeah nothing in SoA for Thief, maybe they intended this job to miss out on all end game events lol. I mean eventually jobs do get singled out and left out of certain content.

[OmnysValefor]

XD Like paladin . Supertanking doesn't count.