Thief Treasure Hunter

[Nebo]

Also as I see the Devs are implementing all this iLvL gear, I'm hoping they haven't forgotten jobs such as THF.

I don't think they've forgotten about the job, but it certainly feels like they don't know what to do with it.

RMTs abused all the lock picking, item stealing etc stuff that made thief really unique so they took it away.

It was once a powerful (and tactical) damage dealer at a certain level and pace of the game. That is no longer the case. There was a high reward for the skill it took to play THF well...that reward no longer exists and almost everything the job has left is laughably weak.

They say enmity this and enmity that, but they don't know how to give THF enmity abilities that are worth anything.

I think Thief players now are just like drug addicts...chasing the feeling that was there the first time they played the job, but never getting it again. The first time they closed a SATAVB distortion Skill chain Magic Burst and watched a monster explode. The first time they pulled an astral ring out of a coffer, the first time they sold a stack of gold beast coins.

Now, it's just a weak damage dealer with unreasonable restrictions that has a weak, passive random number generator enhancing trait.

[Daemon]

I don't think they've forgotten about the job, but it certainly feels like they don't know what to do with it.

RMTs abused all the lock picking, item stealing etc stuff that made thief really unique so they took it away.

It was once a powerful (and tactical) damage dealer at a certain level and pace of the game. That is no longer the case. There was a high reward for the skill it took to play THF well...that reward no longer exists and almost everything the job has left is laughably weak.

They say enmity this and enmity that, but they don't know how to give THF enmity abilities that are worth anything.

I think Thief players now are just like drug addicts...chasing the feeling that was there the first time they played the job, but never getting it again. The first time they closed a SATAVB distortion Skill chain Magic Burst and watched a monster explode. The first time they pulled an astral ring out of a coffer, the first time they sold a stack of gold beast coins.

Now, it's just a weak damage dealer with unreasonable restrictions that has a weak, passive random number generator enhancing trait.

Yeah I just think SE "Could" be much more creative in adding things to thief. I mean I made a TP topic about the fact that losing TP upon switching weapons prevent new ideas.

I think as a tactical way of participating in parties would be adding various Debuff daggers. Sort of like making thief a DD version of Redmage.

Since Thief can attack very fast multiple times. Stats can be shifted to balance thief power based on the debuff of the dagger being used.

Things like Drain TP, Drain MP, Reduce INT, Reduce STR, as dagger debuffs to help the party maintain control like RDM enfeebling magic.

Even adding dagger weapons like Curse, Doom, Death, Petrification would be cool except these weapons would have to be treated as Holy Grail weapons for serious players who play Thief as a main job.

Although we don't even have a spell that allows us to petrify monsters effectively I think it would be cool to follow a different concept than Break. The concept of Petrify should be like stoneskin but stronger. The amount of damage party hits petrified mob would break Petrification.

Or adding new things like grenades, bombs, traps, things to temporarily stop a mob or boss.

Then again Rocket Launchers would be nice too.

[Nebo]

Lots of discussions on the Thief boards about job updates. I'm not really a fan of debuff things, only because there are already so many support options that it likely wouldn't give THF any competitive advantage

I'm more for the DD increase with enmity utility these days. My current favorite is my most recent revamp suggestion found here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post449038

Aside from the fact that THF has weaker overall potential for damage, even when able to meet its positional requirements 100% and ride SATA timers as they are available...

...the greater problem with the whole "positional requirements" shtick is that no other jobs HAVE to play by those rules to do well. Yeah, SAM has overwhelm, and NIN has Innin, but not fulfilling those requirements does not cause their WS to suck immensely. So you have THF, trying to run around and play the positional game solo.

It is a hassle for groups to try to accommodate THF's positional DD nature. THF DD is too weak to create a positional strategy around. So groups invite jobs with greater DD potential that they don't have to think about.

If they REALLY wanted to bring back tanking and tactical positioning they'd make it so that certain enemies have damage resistance and the only way to break it is to keep the monster still and not constantly changing enmity targets. They could even add a system similar to stagger in FF13 which granted a damage multiplier that was increased by magic damage and sustained by physical combat.

OR they could limit the types and amount of jobs that can be in a party. You want a challenge? Ok now you HAVE to fill party slots with one of: 1 Tank (PLD/NIN/RUN) , 1 Light DD (THF/PUP/BLU/BST/DNC), 1 Heavy DD(RNG/DRK/SAM/WAR/MNK/DRG) 1 Healer (WHM/SCH/RDM) 1 Support (BRD/COR/GEO) and 1 Magic Damage (BLM/SMN/SCH).

Create a situation where the most efficient way to deal damage is to coordinate skillchains and MB, control monsters positionally, etc.....but eh, that's a different topic.

I think all the THF mains I know have long since given up that SE is going to throw the job a meaningful bone.

I really don't think the problem is so much that THF deals less damage than other DD's. It's that we don't get to participate as a result. And short of a complete overhaul of current battle mechanics, I don't believe anything other than a DD boost is going to allow THF to participate. The best utility a melee can offer is to be able to make things deader faster with dramatic increases from proper support. THF gains a lot less from proper support than other jobs.

[OmnysValefor]

People keep bringing up enmity.. Did I miss something or did SE say something new about enmity?

The enmity update in April had nothing to do with tanking, but that healers were just putting out way too much hate in the course of a battle. While it did temporarily make tanking feasible, at least for small groups, that was only a coincidental side-effect, delve weapons broke it the very next week.

- - -

On topic, yeah, I hate being on thf because the mob is usually spinning, you can't effectively SA or TA. The player in front of you fidgets, or you misjudge, and that dps is lost, as well as a chance at a proc for the reason the group invited you.

[Nebo]

People keep bringing up enmity.. Did I miss something or did SE say something new about enmity?

Probably because enmity manipulation is one of the roles that SE keeps trying to tell the players that they should bring a THF along for.

They just can't seem to give us anything meaningful to manipulate enmity.

[Calatilla]

If they REALLY wanted to bring back tanking and tactical positioning they'd make it so that certain enemies have damage resistance and the only way to break it is to keep the monster still and not constantly changing enmity targets. They could even add a system similar to stagger in FF13 which granted a damage multiplier that was increased by magic damage and sustained by physical combat.

If they did that then you'd just bring back PLD tanking with DD/THF SA+WS for hate holding, wouldn't change anything for THF.

OR they could limit the types and amount of jobs that can be in a party. You want a challenge? Ok now you HAVE to fill party slots with one of: 1 Tank (PLD/NIN/RUN) , 1 Light DD (THF/PUP/BLU/BST/DNC), 1 Heavy DD(RNG/DRK/SAM/WAR/MNK/DRG) 1 Healer (WHM/SCH/RDM) 1 Support (BRD/COR/GEO) and 1 Magic Damage (BLM/SMN/SCH).

PLD, BLU, WAR, WHM, BRD, SCH depending on mob weakness etc you`d maybe swap PLD for RUN and WAR for DRG or SAM but you won't ever add a THF in there unless you needed TH simple as....

Probably because enmity manipulation is one of the roles that SE keeps trying to tell the players that they should bring a THF along for.

They just can't seem to give us anything meaningful to manipulate enmity.

SE keep saying THF is an enmity manipulator, which job was it that was getting a new enmity SP? oh yea, thats right SCH, well played SE well played

[Karbuncle]

This is another example of the stigma THF Gets, people still can't comprehend that a good THF can out DD many a folk, I'm not going to bother reposting it but you can find the link in a previous post in this thread that shows a THF no less within 1~2% below and above Oatix MNKs in Tojil runs... All the credibility is there and no amount of strawmen will change THF's potential.

The DD were good, the MNKs were good, the THF was good. Having a D:108~ Dagger really does help. THF is just screwed on weaponskills, I can say with certainty if that THF Could have used Mercy Stroke with the Delve MB Dagger, they'd of done much better in the parse.

THF isn't above and beyond a Terrible DD, Its just most if not all people play it with incredible mediocrity so you have a hard time convincing anyone of letting you in the DD Party, and its much more gear and competency controlled than ay other mindless DD job... but equally buffed and extremely well geared, a THF Will provide substantial DD potential as well as being able to contribute whatever meaning TH has.

Its not to say the job isn't in serious need of a rehaul, but a lot of our woes could be solved by more people playing the job well, which unfortunately doesn't happen because its a very very hard job to play well and its extremely gear reliant.

[OmnysValefor]

I'd love to see the thread if you could give me a hint as key phrases to search for.

Because honestly, take away SA, TA, because those are more frustrating than useful in zergs, and thf is a "DD" without native DD enhancement besides Triple Attack II (6% supposedly), and Assassin's Charge. The new daggers hit harder, but dagger is still, by design, a weapon that doesn't hit hard. I would say that I never see thf really competitive for damage, but it's also true that thf isn't in the DD parties so I agree it has the potential for more than it usually does.

Of course, a thf competing for damage would also likely sub war, just like all the other DDs, but in a practical environment, thf should sub dnc in lieu of a real dnc for stutter step and the benefit that gives to the group, samba, and sure, even the ability to waltz himself.

Of course, stutter step isn't as necessary anymore, right now, but new delve may bring back its usefulness.

[Nebo]

If they did that then you'd just bring back PLD tanking with DD/THF SA+WS for hate holding, wouldn't change anything for THF...

..PLD, BLU, WAR, WHM, BRD, SCH depending on mob weakness etc you`d maybe swap PLD for RUN and WAR for DRG or SAM but you won't ever add a THF in there unless you needed TH.

I agree none of those things would specifically help THF without adjustment to the job. That was more in the context of party variety and group mechanics that could be more inclusive to the various types of jobs the game has.

It was intended more of an example to illustrate that there are things they could do to change the paradigm away from Melee + Support Zerg all the things.

People do it because it's the most efficient way to do it. Change the most efficient way to do it and people will do it differently.

[Demon6324236]

If they want THF to be good for enmity they could simply change Trick Attack so that it gives all of the enmity the THF has to the person in front of them rather than only the enmity for a single attack. That alone would mean a THF could rip hate off of other people with their current JAs and then throw a large chunk of enmity at a tank with Trick Attack.