Relic Adjustments - The balancing act

[Cursed]

Almost forgot, SE please ... fix the name of Excalibur's WS... its been almost a decade.
Knights of Round..... needs to be "Knights of the Round"

[Genoxd]

Almost forgot, SE please ... fix the name of Excalibur's WS... its been almost a decade.
Knights of Round..... needs to be "Knights of the Round"

wow.....I just now noticed this...I've been adding/saying the since I first saw the weapon X_X this needs to be fixed..

[Wolfandre]

Also, why do RDMs want to melee but not do enough damage to take hate? Taking hate is a trivially easy task these days due to the way the Enmity system fails. If you aren't taking hate, then your damage sucks. Why would you melee if your damage sucks? I agree that none of the weapons are geared towards RDM melee, but the proposed changes to Mandau (letting Mercy Stroke crit without a forcing JA) and Excal (increasing add effect proc rate) would help them compete with Almace at least.

I would have no problem dealing enough damage to take hate. I would flatter myself, actually (not that RDM has the gear to do that anyway...lawl). However, the proposed fix to Knights of Round was an enmity boost, and I don't like unnecessary hate. I'll take it if I dish it: I've got enough buffs to keep me alive until the tank gets it back. I just don't want to be using a big enmity tool every time I deal damage. Capiche?

[Tamoa]

I detect a lot of jealousy in this thread...

Half the time they didn't want anything for themselves, they were just looking to sell the ebody, ridill, BB item, nhead, dring, hermies boots, etc. ------------- I do know people that earned relics that way, but I know more people that "earned" relics through non-traditional ways, or at least supplemented their income that way.

I do not think that items like Ridill, Ebody and Dring were commonly sold by hnm shells back @ 75 cap. Hell, people are still wanting those items. As for things like BB items and Nhead - those were common drops and linkshells got capped on them quickly. Hermes Sandals? Same deal, linkshells got capped on them quickly, especially seeing as it's only a very few jobs that can equip them. Would it be better to just let these items hit the ground? Or do you think they should have been given away for free and not sold? Something tells me you never did hnms or even other endgame activities much.

As for the bolded part - how do you know this? Have they told you themselves straight out how they got their relic weapon? Or are you just repeating what you have heard from others - i.e. gossip.

I don't have a relic. But I have several friends who have one, and I know they worked their butt off for this weapon. So on behalf of them, and every other relic owner that earned their weapon the hard way, I do take offense. I'm certain the majority of relic owners got theirs by hard work and dedication. And I hope the weapons get the buffs they deserve, seeing as they have been "the best of the best" (for the most part) for such a long time.

[MiriOhki]

I can't add much to this conversation I guess (Having little chance to get a relic, no chance to get a mythic and working on Verethragna but it's like walking on oil-covered glass getting help), but I do have to agree with one comment above:

Can we please get some TOAU/WOTG Relic Love? Wouldn't be hard (BLU: Excalibur, PUP: Spharai, COR: Annihilator, DNC: Mandau, SCH:... Well, Claustrum I guess, just to throw them a bone. I love SCH, but Claustrum, as is, doesn't do a whole lot for SCH, though the Refresh Aftermath couldn't hurt, especially if you're TPing via Occult Accumen.)

[DebbieGibson]

Find it interesting that most people that are downing the idea of any enhancement to relic weapons mainly state the following:

Relic are trophy
People with Relic weapons either schemed it off people, stole banks, or bought gil to buy the currency.
Boosting relic weapons would just put people back into the Have and Have nots, we don't need a "relic or GTFO" mentality.
Relic are just fine the way they are.

Relic shouldn't be "just a trophy" based on all the work to get one.

Out of all the Relic owners in my LS I can tell you for a fact it has nothing to do with scheming the population, being a gil buyer, or stealing LS banks. In fact the number of people that do this is probably a smaller portion of relic owners than some of you think. I don't want to say this is envy on your part, but it is hard not to see it this way. And just to put it out there the Relic owners in the LS range from leads to normal members, our only requirement for obtaining a relic is be an active participant in all events and long-time membership.

While I agree Relic needs a little more of a boost, I don't want it super powered. I just want something that took me years to build to be equal to a weapon that takes only a matter of days to build. Even with adjustments to dynamis it still takes longer to build. It is just sad to see a weapon that took a few days to make outclassing one that takes longer by not just a few hundred dmg, but upwards of a few thousand in damage. If anything these weapons should be near to equal, not 10% or greater difference in favor of Emp.

As for the suggestion for Relic staff, I have to concur that making it that powerful is horribly unbalanced even by today's standards. While I think it needs some form of adjustment to actually be useful to mage oriented gameplay, I don't think it needs to be ridiculously outclassing other options. ToM weapons take a bit of time to make also so they shouldn't be cast aside so easily just because the boost is to a Relic weapon. As I said though, it should be geared more for mage play rather than melee.

I have two relic, still just trophy. I'm not mad at them being weak. I was replying that at comments that their strength should be proportionate to the time needed to acquire, which I greatly disagree with. They should be barely better than empyreans, just barely. I hate the game breaking nature of aegis, even though I have one.

[Byrth]

I would have no problem dealing enough damage to take hate. I would flatter myself, actually (not that RDM has the gear to do that anyway...lawl). However, the proposed fix to Knights of Round was an enmity boost, and I don't like unnecessary hate. I'll take it if I dish it: I've got enough buffs to keep me alive until the tank gets it back. I just don't want to be using a big enmity tool every time I deal damage. Capiche?

If you're meleeing and doing good damage, you will inevitably tank. If you're a competent player, it's better to have you tank on RDM/NIN than the guys you're out-DDing on lolRDM. I still don't see the issue.

[Kitkat]

I have two relic, still just trophy. I'm not mad at them being weak. I was replying that at comments that their strength should be proportionate to the time needed to acquire, which I greatly disagree with. They should be barely better than empyreans, just barely. I hate the game breaking nature of aegis, even though I have one.

I have a moghouse full of trophies from holiday events, I didn't build a relic for aesthetics as I'm sure a good deal of others didn't. Most I know with a relic or emp. weapon built them for 1 reason: utility. I have one of each for the two jobs I use the most. A Trophy is something you get for show alone. I don't suppose you have yours just for show do you? Put it on only for Idle gear?

Additionally when I say "Should be worth the effort" I never said I want them to be decidedly more powerful than emp. I even stated they should be near to equal in strength and power. Some of them are equal in WS strength, yes, but due to the type of aftermath Emp. have they pull noticeably ahead of relic. Then you have the ones where the WS leaves the relic version in the dust on top of the aftermath effect. For Mandau, I personally like the aftermath the way it is, but seeing a WS difference of 1~1.5k in ideal situations is discouraging. The WS themselves have no TP mod unlike Emp weapons other than to prolong duration of aftermath.

Relics only need minor boosts to be equal to the emp and that is all I want; a minor boost in performance to close the otherwise outrageous gap that exist now.

[DebbieGibson]

I have a moghouse full of trophies from holiday events, I didn't build a relic for aesthetics as I'm sure a good deal of others didn't. Most I know with a relic or emp. weapon built them for 1 reason: utility. I have one of each for the two jobs I use the most. A Trophy is something you get for show alone. I don't suppose you have yours just for show do you? Put it on only for Idle gear?

Additionally when I say "Should be worth the effort" I never said I want them to be decidedly more powerful than emp. I even stated they should be near to equal in strength and power. Some of them are equal in WS strength, yes, but due to the type of aftermath Emp. have they pull noticeably ahead of relic. Then you have the ones where the WS leaves the relic version in the dust on top of the aftermath effect. For Mandau, I personally like the aftermath the way it is, but seeing a WS difference of 1~1.5k in ideal situations is discouraging. The WS themselves have no TP mod unlike Emp weapons other than to prolong duration of aftermath.

Relics only need minor boosts to be equal to the emp and that is all I want; a minor boost in performance to close the otherwise outrageous gap that exist not.

I wasn't talking about you.
I was referring to this post:

SE devs talk about balance yet they have no idea what they are doing with regards to relic/mythic/empy weapons.

Difficulty:Reward ratio is skewed to badly with regards to these weapons its impossible to take the dev team seriously when they talk about said "balance".

Relics and Mythic should be much much more powerful.

Relics should be much more powerful with a higher DMG and better aftermath. Mythic should be on par with relics.

Empy should be SLIGHTLY easier to obtain with regard to collecting all those items at the end trials. Reduce the amount needed from 50 to 25. From 75 to 50. Bump up the NM difficulty so they cant just be easily low manned (hi to you masamune) and increase the number of NMs which must be hunted for these trials to start with.

But in the big picture im sure others can come up with better ideas than these. I just want it to be known that in my personal opinion relics should be very very powerful with the difficulty in obtaining them. Hell release a ring that corrosponds to each particular relic that when equiped your minimum WS is based off the level of the Monster you are fighting.

100-90 = 2k ws minimum
90-50 = 3k ws minimum
50-0 = 4k ws minimum

Relic/mythic should have a little bit of utility I agree, but I do not think it should be more than 2-3% better than the 2nd best option.

[Sama]

Just remove the off-hand limitation plz it's not fair at this moment which emp doesn't have that limitation; I still get the agi+ from Kannagi when used off-hand.