Relic Adjustments - The balancing act

[SpankWustler]

demonic botting overlords of dragon's aery

I've been looking for a name for my progressive blackened death metal band for a while, and I finally found it! You just saved me from being the bass-player in "Satan's Butt".

I've never understood the argument of "some people do things in a manner of which I do not approve, and therefor [insert argument here]" in the context of FFXI. What some people choose to do socially shouldn't determine the numbers on items, in my opinion.

Anyway, the current method for obtaining a relic weapon is "repeatedly duo or trio dynamis with a few bros and bro-ettes" so should how people obtained them back in the day even matter?

[Alienmonkey]

Relic are trophy

[Kitkat]

Find it interesting that most people that are downing the idea of any enhancement to relic weapons mainly state the following:

Relic are trophy
People with Relic weapons either schemed it off people, stole banks, or bought gil to buy the currency.
Boosting relic weapons would just put people back into the Have and Have nots, we don't need a "relic or GTFO" mentality.
Relic are just fine the way they are.

Relic shouldn't be "just a trophy" based on all the work to get one.

Out of all the Relic owners in my LS I can tell you for a fact it has nothing to do with scheming the population, being a gil buyer, or stealing LS banks. In fact the number of people that do this is probably a smaller portion of relic owners than some of you think. I don't want to say this is envy on your part, but it is hard not to see it this way. And just to put it out there the Relic owners in the LS range from leads to normal members, our only requirement for obtaining a relic is be an active participant in all events and long-time membership.

While I agree Relic needs a little more of a boost, I don't want it super powered. I just want something that took me years to build to be equal to a weapon that takes only a matter of days to build. Even with adjustments to dynamis it still takes longer to build. It is just sad to see a weapon that took a few days to make outclassing one that takes longer by not just a few hundred dmg, but upwards of a few thousand in damage. If anything these weapons should be near to equal, not 10% or greater difference in favor of Emp.

As for the suggestion for Relic staff, I have to concur that making it that powerful is horribly unbalanced even by today's standards. While I think it needs some form of adjustment to actually be useful to mage oriented gameplay, I don't think it needs to be ridiculously outclassing other options. ToM weapons take a bit of time to make also so they shouldn't be cast aside so easily just because the boost is to a Relic weapon. As I said though, it should be geared more for mage play rather than melee.

[AldielQuetz]

@Xellith: Agreed, effort to reward ratio is off the charts as far as imbalance.

I would like to see all relics and mythics at the VERY LEAST brought up to par in Weaponskill strength and effectiveness of Aftermath. And you know I'm right! Just look at Apoc, gear haste can be capped FOR FREE with ease by almost every job, even Dusk Gloves+1 got bumped to tier1 to help facilitate this, so that weapon needs work, OH WAIT! HAI They all do!

@Ahrana. Are you trolling? Majority bought through RMT and stealing????? No, please be serious in this thread.

For some of us, that spent years collecting coins 1 by 1 at a time, dreamed of the day that it would finally be done, had friends come and gone that helped farm or even gave up some currency of their own( oh hai Daywalker ftw my last 752 o bronze pieces) that kind of talk is a slap in the face. Look, we get it, more user friendly is what SE is after, they want to keep their player base, cool, I like all the new content, I even have an empy, it's rad thanks... But PLEASE recognize those players that spent every single hour of their free time farming in this game to achieve the ultimate weapon. Just give us the attention, we the loyal, we the hard working, we the adventures who truly are adventurers at heart, just give us what we ask for, the balance we deserve.

Is that too much to ask? Not better, equal.

Thank you.

[Ahrana]

@Xellith: Agreed, effort to reward ratio is off the charts as far as imbalance.

I would like to see all relics and mythics at the VERY LEAST brought up to par in Weaponskill strength and effectiveness of Aftermath. And you know I'm right! Just look at Apoc, gear haste can be capped FOR FREE with ease by almost every job, even Dusk Gloves+1 got bumped to tier1 to help facilitate this, so that weapon needs work, OH WAIT! HAI They all do!

Your argument would be better if you knew that the apoc aftermath effect counted as job ability haste and not gear haste. Kind of a wash since dark knights can cap JA haste with last resort, but it does help cover the time that it would be down.

@Ahrana. Are you trolling? Majority bought through RMT and stealing????? No, please be serious in this thread.

For some of us, that spent years collecting coins 1 by 1 at a time, dreamed of the day that it would finally be done, had friends come and gone that helped farm or even gave up some currency of their own( oh hai Daywalker ftw my last 752 o bronze pieces) that kind of talk is a slap in the face. Look, we get it, more user friendly is what SE is after, they want to keep their player base, cool, I like all the new content, I even have an empy, it's rad thanks... But PLEASE recognize those players that spent every single hour of their free time farming in this game to achieve the ultimate weapon. Just give us the attention, we the loyal, we the hard working, we the adventures who truly are adventurers at heart, just give us what we ask for, the balance we deserve.

Well, if you're slapped in the face then oh well. Fact is that it happened, and it happened a lot. Linkshells didn't sit up in Dragons Aery with bots to pass the time, that's how they bought (certain) members relics. Half the time they didn't want anything for themselves, they were just looking to sell the ebody, ridill, BB item, nhead, dring, hermies boots, etc. You can talk til you're blue in the face about how you earned your relic, and that may or may not be true. I do know people that earned relics that way, but I know more people that "earned" relics through non-traditional ways, or at least supplemented their income that way.

If you ask them they all say they did the "hard work" approach though. Funny how that works.

[Byrth]

Your argument would be better if you knew that the apoc aftermath effect counted as job ability haste and not gear haste. Kind of a wash since dark knights can cap JA haste with last resort, but it does help cover the time that it would be down.

It gives you 10% Equipment haste, which is why Apoc users have 16% Haste aftermath sets.

Well, if you're slapped in the face then oh well. Fact is that it happened, and it happened a lot. Linkshells didn't sit up in Dragons Aery with bots to pass the time, that's how they bought (certain) members relics. Half the time they didn't want anything for themselves, they were just looking to sell the ebody, ridill, BB item, nhead, dring, hermies boots, etc. You can talk til you're blue in the face about how you earned your relic, and that may or may not be true. I do know people that earned relics that way, but I know more people that "earned" relics through non-traditional ways, or at least supplemented their income that way.

If you ask them they all say they did the "hard work" approach though. Funny how that works.

In the days of kings, I was in an event shell with well over a dozen relics that never camped kings. Dynamis, Salvage, Sea, Sky, Einherjar, Limbus, KS99s, Ouryu v2/Bahamut, etc. Most of the owners made their gil through crafting. The closest we came to HNM camping was camping Tiamat, which we did on a "your claim/camp, your drops" basis, or Ixion before there was stiff competition and spook wars. If they were RMTing, it wasn't to buy gil/relics but to sell.

Everyone in endgame (except people who don't camp anything) were called botters at one point or another in those days. Half of the times the accusations were accurate. Heck, I got called a botter at one point by an unabashed chinese RMT taru in sky because I claimed Ulli so quickly. Best botter to ever grace the PS2, if I don't say so myself!

Anyway, it doesn't matter what your opinion of past relic owners is. Lowering the effort required to get a relic (through the dynamis re-vamp) opens the door for many new potential relic owners who shouldn't be penalized for your opinion of their predecessors.



Also, why do RDMs want to melee but not do enough damage to take hate? Taking hate is a trivially easy task these days due to the way the Enmity system fails. If you aren't taking hate, then your damage sucks. Why would you melee if your damage sucks? I agree that none of the weapons are geared towards RDM melee, but the proposed changes to Mandau (letting Mercy Stroke crit without a forcing JA) and Excal (increasing add effect proc rate) would help them compete with Almace at least.

[Wolfandre]

Also, why do RDMs want to melee but not do enough damage to take hate? Taking hate is a trivially easy task these days due to the way the Enmity system fails. If you aren't taking hate, then your damage sucks. Why would you melee if your damage sucks? I agree that none of the weapons are geared towards RDM melee, but the proposed changes to Mandau (letting Mercy Stroke crit without a forcing JA) and Excal (increasing add effect proc rate) would help them compete with Almace at least.

I would have no problem dealing enough damage to take hate. I would flatter myself, actually (not that RDM has the gear to do that anyway...lawl). However, the proposed fix to Knights of Round was an enmity boost, and I don't like unnecessary hate. I'll take it if I dish it: I've got enough buffs to keep me alive until the tank gets it back. I just don't want to be using a big enmity tool every time I deal damage. Capiche?

[Byrth]

I would have no problem dealing enough damage to take hate. I would flatter myself, actually (not that RDM has the gear to do that anyway...lawl). However, the proposed fix to Knights of Round was an enmity boost, and I don't like unnecessary hate. I'll take it if I dish it: I've got enough buffs to keep me alive until the tank gets it back. I just don't want to be using a big enmity tool every time I deal damage. Capiche?

If you're meleeing and doing good damage, you will inevitably tank. If you're a competent player, it's better to have you tank on RDM/NIN than the guys you're out-DDing on lolRDM. I still don't see the issue.

[Atomic_Skull]

Your argument would be better if you knew that the apoc aftermath effect counted as job ability haste and not gear haste. Kind of a wash since dark knights can cap JA haste with last resort, but it does help cover the time that it would be down.

Oh, wow lol

[Cursed]

Oh, wow lol

wasn't always like that though. A way to start to fix apoc would be to undo what they did two years ago.


EDIT: I've been thinking a lot about Spharai. While I don't think they should beat their empyrean counterpart I do think SE can bring some traditional elements to MNK through them, without overshadowing mythic/empyrean.

If spharai could be given additional effects that grant stun/paralyze/ and a dot effect "bleed" I think the weapon would be far more appealing.
Idk, could make the additional effect be dependant on JAs you use.
for exampe
"Spharai Lv.99
Augments Focus - with focus up, melee attacks with spharai have a 40% chance of paralyzing target
Augments Perfect Counter - counters may inflict a wound and cause target to bleed for 2 minutes @ 20hp/tick.
Augments Impetus - with impetus up and spharai, attacks have a 40% chance of stunning target.