Relic Adjustments - The balancing act

[Ahrana]

I'm going to disagree with the general ideas posted in this thread. The last thing FFXI needs is to seperate people into haves and have nots, and changing relics into OMFG overwhelming weapons will do just that. We don't need to go back to a system of "relic or GTFO."

While some relics were bought using legitmate time and effort, I would venture to guess that most relics were funded by linkshell bank stealing, gil buying, or NM botting. Or those wonderful people who make a linkshell to help people get relics, but then they break it after they complete theirs. I'm really not inclined to have SE bend over backwards to "reward" these players with must have, game defining weapons at 99.

I'm ok with them being slightly more powerful then other options, but the changes suggested here are just overwhelming.

And when I say relic here I mean mythic weapons also, which are largely terribad with a few exceptions.

[Byrth]

I'm going to disagree with the general ideas posted in this thread. The last thing FFXI needs is to seperate people into haves and have nots, and changing relics into OMFG overwhelming weapons will do just that. We don't need to go back to a system of "relic or GTFO."

While some relics were bought using legitmate time and effort, I would venture to guess that most relics were funded by linkshell bank stealing, gil buying, or NM botting. Or those wonderful people who make a linkshell to help people get relics, but then they break it after they complete theirs. I'm really not inclined to have SE bend over backwards to "reward" these players with must have, game defining weapons at 99.

I'm ok with them being slightly more powerful then other options, but the changes suggested here are just overwhelming.

And when I say relic here I mean mythic weapons also, which are largely terribad with a few exceptions.

Thanks for reading! You may have missed something though.

I'm going to propose a few changes to keep relic weapons relevant, though I don't think there's any obligation to make them the "best" weapon for every job in every situation.

2) Keep in mind that the goal is to make each weapon useful, without necessarily making it the best in every situation.

Other than that, thanks for the support guys!

[Ahrana]

Thanks for reading! You may have missed something though.

2) Keep in mind that the goal is to make each weapon useful, without necessarily making it the best in every situation.

My rebuttal:

Claustrum - This is both a hard and an easy weapon to save. By making it so you never have to take it off and increasing GoT so it regains more MP than SA-Spirit Taker, this weapon becomes much more viable.
* Add +35% magic damage, +65 Magic Accuracy, and Avatar Perpetuation Cost -6 to the level 90 weapon, scaling up from +20%/+20 and -3 on the level 75 weapon.
* Change Gate of Tartarus' modifier from 60% CHR to 60% INT.
* Make Gate of Tartarus' give 40MP/tick as its Aftermath instead of 8MP/tick (400MP per 100TP, or 800MP/minute max).

[Byrth]

Nirvana gets -7 perp.

Hverg gets Myrkr. Admittedly, you'd need 2000 MP (plausible in Abyssea) for a 100TP Myrkr to restore 400 MP, but that weaponskill also lets you stay out of range and restores status effects.

Any run of the mill ToM staff that a dedicated player can grind out in literally two days gets 5 Affinity or -5 Perp, so this is a one point upgrade to both of those, and they come with spell casting or recast time reduction.

Claustrum currently has no niche. There currently is no single "best damage staff." Making Claustrum the best damage staff and functional in the other roles isn't overpowering it, it's giving it any role at all.

[Ahrana]

Nirvana gets -7 perp.

Hverg gets Myrkr. Admittedly, you'd need 2000 MP (plausible in Abyssea) for a 100TP Myrkr to restore 400 MP, but that weaponskill also lets you stay out of range and restores status effects.

Any run of the mill ToM staff that a dedicated player can grind out in literally two days gets 5 Affinity or -5 Perp, so this is a one point upgrade to both of those, and they come with spell casting or recast time reduction.

Claustrum currently has no niche. There currently is no single "best damage staff." Making Claustrum the best damage staff and functional in the other roles isn't overpowering it, it's giving it any role at all.

You're stretching now. A black mage weapon that does more magic damage and has more magic accuracy for every element then any other staff isn't a "niche" weapon (yes, even including the -casting or -recast times). Implying that it is because it has less -perp cost then a fully upgraded mythic, or that it doesn't recover as much mp as another staff that has no other redeeming value really exposes the weakness in your argument. The fact that you had to use abyssea buffs to even make the point makes it even more laughable.

[Byrth]

You're stretching now. A black mage weapon that does more magic damage and has more magic accuracy for every element then any other staff isn't a "niche" weapon (yes, even including the -casting or -recast times). Implying that it is because it has less -perp cost then a fully upgraded mythic, or that it doesn't recover as much mp as another staff that has no other redeeming value really exposes the weakness in your argument. The fact that you had to use abyssea buffs to even make the point makes it even more laughable.

No, it is a "niche" weapon. Its "niche" is being the best nuking weapon. Right now every relic and mythic nuking staff is outclassed by standard ToM staves. Making Claustrum the best nuking weapon by a paltry 4% (1.35/1.3) is not going to make it standard equipment or expected. As for how the BLM Mythic (Laev) would be changed to be useful, I'm not sure. You could just slap Enmity-50 on it with decent nuking stats and call it a day, but people tend not to value Enmity reduction on BLM because you generally re-cap VE every nuke with or without it. That's a problem for another day.

The -6 Perp and weaponskill are just a nod to Summoner (if you swap the staff you lose the aftermath), who can also equip the staff. In standard SMN-is-useful-here fights, some combination of Nirvana and/or Hverg would be preferable to this staff (for instance, idling and BPing in Nirvana and using Hverg when you get a Dusty Wing temp). My summoner has 1400 MP outside Abyssea wearing AF3+2 without MP merits. If people felt like it (including the +120 MP on the staff), I'm sure they could pump themselves up to 2000 MP for WS and get back 400MP at 100TP with Myrkr outside Abyssea if they felt like it.

Claustrum would just be a desirable weapon with a role instead of a gigantic waste of currency. It's not like making it useful is suddenly going to make it easy to obtain, with mages that fail to obtain it being ostracized by the (exclusive?) endgame establishment. The game is in its twilight years and people do events with any group they can cobble together. I accept people in my voidwatch alliance as long as I can be fairly sure they're less of a liability than they are an asset. Half the time I'm dualboxing two HQ Ele staff BLM/RDMs just going for procs. In Abyssea? Forget about it, I don't even bring staves when I'm proccing with my mule's BLM/BRD.

What does it hurt to have a clear "best" staff? Isn't the elusive "Rainbow Staff" what BLMs have been dreaming of for years? I've had friends who quit the game essentially because they capped out on gear and Bard is the only mage job that gets a useful relic or, in one case, got G-horn and then quit.

[Creelo]

Gjallarhorn does need a buff, even though a couple people here think otherwise.

I've said this in the Brd forums but...
If we do get March III (which an Animation does appear to be in the dats), then capping Magical Haste won't be exclusive to Gjallarhorn. Scherzo's better used with Daurdabla since the potency increase with Gjallarhorn isn't worth it. Ballads aren't needed inside Abyssea and we have easily obtainable Ballad+ gear to supplement Ballad for outside Abyssea anyways.

A song specific for Gjallarhorn has been in need for awhile, and it looks like it'll be hopefully getting Massacre Elegy, which would be a great buff to Gjallarhorn owners.

[Ahrana]

As I said before, while some people legitimately worked for their relic weapons, most of the people that have them buy gil, steal LS banks, sell drops on NM's claimed with bots, or make relic linkshells that get broken after they get theirs. I would prefer if SE didn't cater to the trash who normally have relic weapons.

[Byrth]

As I said before, while some people legitimately worked for their relic weapons, most of the people that have them buy gil, steal LS banks, sell drops on NM's claimed with bots, or make relic linkshells that get broken after they get theirs. I would prefer if SE didn't cater to the trash who normally have relic weapons.

There are plenty of legitimate players (honestly, probably the majority) that don't match your description of relic owners. "Relic Linkshells," Dynamis funding, and all that other crap have always been a trap, but they're a pretty obvious trap that's avoidable by anyone with half a brain and a little common sense. People that join them should realize what a pyramid scheme they are before they join, and just accept that they're trading a lot of potential profit for the ability to take part in endgame events (until something better comes along, I'd hope.) I didn't do Dynamis for two years because I couldn't find a shell that wasn't obviously exploitation. When I helped lead one, it was straight sell and split and I made sure we got top dollar for our currency.

Currently, relics are very easy to obtain relative to what they once were. They may not be quite Empyrean weapon-easy yet, but they really aren't very hard and get easier by the day as people figure out the new Dynamis proc system and the price of currency drops. In the last months and a half, I've effectively spent about a relic and a half worth of gil (on Alexandrite), most of which came from farming Dynamis, Salvage, BCNMs, sea/sky farming, and some minor resale. I don't sell anything R/Ex. I don't bot. I don't exploit people. If people come to help me, I try and make sure I'm not wasting their time. If I think I'm wasting their time, I feel bad and generally try to stop them from helping me.

These aren't some pie-in-the-sky god-weapons that only the demonic botting overlords of dragon's aery can possibly own (not that they ever have been). These are things that you could literally get in two months if you play regularly and put your mind to it. Farm about a 140 currency per day duoing with a mule (or friend) and weapons take about 14000 currency not including relic loan. Assuming all you do for currency is 2~2.5 hours of Dynamis a day (realistically including prep time), you're still looking at only ~4 months to complete your weapon. If you toss some gil into the equation or spend time doing other things I'm sure you could get it in 2.

[Chriscoffey]

My friend on Carbuncle named Arcanes got his Uko in a 23 hours time period so basically 1 day. The time required to get relics far exceeds that amount of time by a long shot. The empyrean weapons are quite easy to get compared to relic/mythic and yet they are far more powerful in most cases. I am curious how SE resolves this as they have mentioned. I am gleeful inside about that considering people with empyrean were quite happy to tell relic/mythic owners to suck it up and get over the old content. These are the same people that are upset their week or so empyrean weapons might become the weaker weapon.