This thread AGAIN, please, fix WK.

[Daemon]

There are two types of enmity.

Volatile Enmity - This builds and fades with time.

Cumulative Enmity - This builds and stays. The only way to lose this enmity is to get hit or die. Curing generates cumulative enmity, which is why why it does hit a whm, it usually only hits them once, comes back and hits a melee once, and then goes to hit the whm once.

If you don't have a thf, there is nothing anyone can do at enmity cap but turn around and wait a ridiculous time for some of that enmity to fade.

And no Daemon, zerging this crap is the best way to handle it now. Seriously, every decent EGLS has access to, or could have, a well geared Paladin or Ninja. If tanking were worth the effort, we'd do it.

But you just offered a solution to how cumulative enmity can be accomplished. If you party with highly skilled thieves.

But people discriminate jobs, leading to give up on these jobs and use them for what they can do. Then people get use to the idea that these jobs are worthless. Then you never see a truly high skilled player show you the potential of how they can make the strategy work. And when people do invite these jobs, they assume only 1 job is enough to make a judgement over them entirely.

Then you have people assuming certain jobs are meant to be something their not.

If recast time is an issue then wouldn't it make sense to hire more of the same job and rotate?

People don't truly study jobs and bosses to figure out different strategies with the mindset of "this job is worthless because DPS is the only way to go, its not worth the time and effort"

Which to me is just a lazy excuse to get the fight over with as quick as possible. This is why I find partying with NA is boring.

JP parties use different techniques and study up on thinks like

Stand near the wall because ADL can push back players.
Zerg off regular mob to reduce enmity and make the fight messy.
Mass buff using SCH, SMN, COR, BRD to have invincibility in the beginning of the fight that could provide an advantage of getting a good head start.
Use certain jobs to rotate to accomplish Skillchains, enmity control, etc.

[OmnysValefor]

But you just offered a solution to how cumulative enmity can be accomplished. If you party with highly skilled thieves.

But people discriminate jobs, leading to give up on these jobs and use them for what they can do. Then people get use to the idea that these jobs are worthless. Then you never see a truly high skilled player show you the potential of how they can make the strategy work. And when people do invite these jobs, they assume only 1 job is enough to make a judgement over them entirely.

Then you have people assuming jobs are meant to be something their not.

The problems with enmity right now.

- Hate cap is way too low.
- Hate cap exists. Really, it shouldn't.
- Tanks can't hit fast enough at hate cap. One reason monks tanked in abyssea was that they hit so fast and hard that when people were hate-capping, the fastest hard hitter kept pinging against hate cap and so took the most hits. Monks also happened to have the most hp, so it worked. Ninjas hit fast, not nearly as hard as monk though.
- Every DD accelerates hate far faster than a tank. They hit harder, and faster, especially compared to paladin.

It really, really, is not worth the trouble to try to pretend the job is useful.

Last time I had to tank on PLD, I went pld/drk to Kurma in a blm-burn. I was in a party with 2 sams, 2 bards, and a whm. I got double march and idr what else and I just stun/flash'd the whole fight. Even though Kurma resisted most of them, I was still generating the hate from it. Even still, the BLMs would pull Kurma out of the melee at least once per fight, because of hate cap.

There really isn't anything about paladin, enmity, or tanking that you can tell me Daemon that I don't already know.

Enmity is broken.

[Daemon]

The problems with enmity right now.

- Hate cap is way too low.
- Hate cap exists. Really, it shouldn't.
- Tanks can't hit fast enough at hate cap. One reason monks tanked in abyssea was that they hit so fast and hard that when people were hate-capping, the fastest hard hitter kept pinging against hate cap and so took the most hits. Monks also happened to have the most hp, so it worked. Ninjas hit fast, not nearly as hard as monk though.
- Every DD accelerates hate far faster than a tank. They hit harder, and faster, especially compared to paladin.

It really, really, is not worth the trouble to try to pretend the job is useful.

Last time I had to tank on PLD, I went pld/drk to Kurma in a blm-burn. I was in a party with 2 sams, 2 bards, and a whm. I got double march and idr what else and I just stun/flash'd the whole fight. Even though Kurma resisted most of them, I was still generating the hate from it. Even still, the BLMs would pull Kurma out of the melee at least once per fight, because of hate cap.

There really isn't anything about paladin, enmity, or tanking that you can tell me Daemon that I don't already know.

Enmity is broken.

To me it sounds like people want to play too fast than take time to do strategy properly.

This is why I've spent so much time spamming the same bosses over and over and learn about pacing my recast timers to knowing the pace of when boss cast spells and conditions like reset hate.

Team work requires homework.

Hate cap is way too low. For tanker? Then it means DD is dealing too much damage too fast.

If that's the case, DD should be purposely gimping their damage by equipping lower level damage gear and weapons or give tanker time to raise enmity.

Otherwise hire 1-2 thief that can rotate stealing enmity off other DD and then SATA off Tanker.

Meaning you are purposely lowering enmity of others and redirecting it onto tanker.

This solves tankers from losing enmity.

Also DD attacking normal mobs for TP provides better control over tanker from losing hate. And gives tanker time to raise enmity at the same time.

Why do this if we can kill faster with DPS?

That can be a hit or miss situation that's why.

In the long run strategy is suppose to be consistent flow of damage with control than attack and pause due to people dying.

Most JPs I know have been doing this for years with the same group of friends and that's why you see some as pro when in reality this is suppose to be basics that everyone learn at low levels, throughout the entire exp phase.

People don't learn this because instant gratification, taking short cuts and being lazy just to get past it as if its a burden.

Purposely Leaving out jobs that provide these strategies all because they rather do things fast and get it over with.

Pacing the fight with strategy requires several things. Not just Zerg and kill with highest DPS and win. That's why I find it boring playing with NA groups.

All DD are power hungry and only care about who can deal the most DMG. That's not thinking as a team, that's thinking as an individual in a group of people who are suppose to be thinking as a team.

The more people you add to the equation, the less control you have or the harder it becomes to control the situation is also why groups fail. Especially when people do not listen.

Most JPs think why you need to have more people when it can be done with less and more efficient and more effective if done right. And this is why a lot of JPs don't want to party with NA.

[Demon6324236]

Hate cap is way too low. For tanker? Then it means DD is dealing too much damage too fast.

If that's the case, DD should be purposely gimping their damage by equipping lower level damage gear and weapons or give tanker time to raise enmity.

Now we have reached this point. Where our DDs must hold our PLDs hand because he cant do his job properly due to broken mechanics, and ends up being nothing more than a hindrance to the team. This is the exact reason no one brings a PLD, because doing this would cause failure in most events, and is generally a stupid thing to need to do for a job to be of use in the first place.

[OmnysValefor]

Go beat 5/5 Delve, and then beat Tojil, and then come talk to us about where the game stands.

Seriously man.

You only have so many party spots. 18 spreads awfully thin.

Let alone Daquwaqa or bee.

[Daemon]

Go beat 5/5 Delve, and then beat Tojil, and then come talk to us about where the game stands.

Seriously man.

You only have so many party spots. 18 spreads awfully thin.

So you are saying its impossible to low man Delve and kill all bosses within the time limit.

You are under a false illusion like most players today. Party with JPs for long time and you will see the difference.

At the current state everyone thinks boss is too hard and think having more people with highest DPS will win. Of course you can win. Anyone can gang bang a fight and end up winning.

Focusing only on DPS jobs mainly without strategy is like hire 1 tank and 17 BLM casting Meteor. Yeah you will win, and win fast. But the risks add up to hit and miss.

The real challenge is doing it with less people fastest possible on a flow.

You may think because it might take longer to do strategy is not worth it but if the flow is steady, gimping damage for the sake of flow well makes up for it in the long run compare to hit and miss, fall down and die, mages flailing arms in the air running in circles, DD attacking gimp under weaken or double weakness status and so on.

[Demon6324236]

So you are saying its impossible to low man Delve and kill all bosses within the time limit.

You are under a false illusion like most players today. Party with JPs for long time and you will see the difference.

At the current state everyone thinks boss is too hard and think having more people with highest DPS will win. Of course you can win. Anyone can gang bang a fight and end up winning.

Focusing only on DPS jobs mainly without strategy is like hire 1 tank and 17 BLM casting Meteor. Yeah you will win, and win fast.

But the real challenge is doing it with less people fastest possible on a flow.

You may think because it might take longer to do strategy is not worth it but if the flow is steady, gimping damage for the sake of flow well makes up for it in the long run compare to hit and miss, fall down and die, mages flailing arms in the air running in circles, DD attacking gimp under unweaken and so on.

Without deflecting or avoiding, answer this question.

Have you, or have you not, participated in a successful Tojil run?

[Daemon]

Without deflecting or avoiding, answer this question.

Have you, or have you not, participated in a successful Tojil run?

Here we go again. Have you tried every strategy, party setup, all jobs to come to the conclusion that there is only one way to win? Stop avoiding that question then ill answer yours.

[OmnysValefor]

Without deflecting or avoiding, answer this question.

Have you, or have you not, participated in a successful Tojil run?

Here we go again.

I choked, laughing, on my soda when I read that.

[Demon6324236]

Here we go again.

Quite so, once again, a deflection of the question...

Have you tried every strategy, party setup, all jobs to come to the conclusion that there is only one way to win?

Have I? No, I have not, however, I have zerged the boss in the quickest way possible, and won with very little time remaining many times. To cut my kill speed in a run to half would be the same as doubling the time it took to finish the run. My best run I have ever had left us with 20 minutes remaining, which meant we took 25 minutes. 25 doubled is 50, the maximum time in zone is 45 minutes, as such, I would have failed on my best run I have ever been in for Tojil if my kill speed was halved, not to mention every person in the run was using a Delve weapon obtained from a Boss, Upu DRGs, Oat MNKs, and Senbaak DRKs. At the same time, to allow a PLD to tank, that is what would be needed. If you want to put in THFs you have to either get rid of buffers, one of your BRDs or CORs, or a DD out of the 3 you put in a party, which cuts your DD power down, especially when you expect them to focus on hate management. Since you want 2 THFs and a PLD, that cuts out a total of 3 of your primary DDs. Now since you are going to want Angon, at least 1 DD should be a DRG. So it looks to me like your expected party setup would be...

PLD+DRG+THF+BRD+COR+WHM
MNK+MNK+THF+BRD+COR+WHM
RDM+BRD+SCH+SCH+GEO+GEO

Now on top of all of these sacrifices you are saying I should then tell my DDs that they need to TP on normal mobs rather than the NM because we want the PLD to tank? I have not tried it, but I doubt I need to. I understand the game, the damage output, and my restrictions given via time and party limits.

To answer simply, no, I haven't tried every strategy.

Now, answer my question and stop dodging and deflecting every time its asked.