New gear issue: Kick attacks?

[Urat]

I think, with all the focus Se has had on pets, magic accuracy, interruption rate, and etc, SE has either forgotten or neglected to cover the glaring issue with these new badass weapons.

Se has essentially thrown the job ability Footwork in the garbage. There is absolutely no way right now that Footworks is even remotely useful when we have so many weapons with up to triple the dps of even +2 feet dps on footworks.

I think the fix for this is super easy and simple though, and falls in line with the rest.

Make +dmg on kick attacks based on the iLvl of feet armor worn by monks. The actual formula would have to make the DPS of footworks with manibozho feet be about the same as the DPS of the delve baghnacks.

This honestly should be little to no problem to do a quick fix, simply need to edit the values for all feet armor equippable by monk to have the same "hidden" +dmg mod system in the exact same style as all the other old kick attacks feet with hidden +kick attacks dmg

There's, what? like 2 pieces of feet armor? Manibozho and Thurandaut.

Thurandaut is ilvl 100, and Manibozho is ilvl 110.

Lets say we want to match the normal DPS of Forefront Cesti outside reives to Footwork DPS of Thurandaut Feet; as well as the DPS of Rigor Baghnacks unupgraded to Manibozho feet with footwork up.

The first two are bought with bayld and the second two with plasm, and have similiar ilvls, so I think its safe to say they'd have similar DPS. However footworks has +attack and other effects going for it, and the feet are much cheaper than weapons, so lets aim for about 95% or so of the DPS give or take when we dont factor in the new tp/hit, massive dmg bonus to Dragon kick, or +attack.

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Forefront Cesti: (Post update values so with the +HTH skill)
280+60=340 Delay (Martial arts 8)
Hand-To-Hand skill: 424+63+16 = 503 HTH skill on meritted mnk
Dmg: (503*0.11)+3+52 = 110 Base dmg using known HTH dmg formula
DPS: (110*60)/340 = 19.4 DPS

Rigor Baghnacks: (Post update so with the +HTh skill)
280+60=340 delay
HTH Skill: 424+162+16 = 602 HTH skill on meritted monk
DMG: (602*0.11)+3+90 = 159 base dmg
DPS: (159*60)/340 = 28.1 DPS

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Now the important thing here is I believe for a well developed system to work, players will be able to math all of this out and flat out say whether it is right or wrong to use kick attacks if the values are far off from each other. So because the new hand to hand give such massive +HTH skill, and +HTH skill would increase kick attacks, said weapons would also dramatically boost your dps of your kick attacks. So if you just balance the feet vs the hand to hand weapons WITHOUT factoring in the possibilty of just wearing both and getting
double the bonus, you'd just make that the obvious best option.

So instead, what is better to balance, is take thew best possible gear set (wearing both together) and balance footwork dps vs non footwork dps.

In other words, I am going to add +63 and +162 HTH skill to thurandant and Manibozho feet respectively, to simulate a player wearing the respective weapon.

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Goal DPSs: (Take off 5% to factor in +attack and tp/hit etc etc for footworks so it isnt strictly better)

Thurandaut Boots: 19.4*0.95 = 18.4 DPS
Manibozho Boots: 28.1*0.95 = 26.7 DPS

Base delay for both is 480

HTH skill:
Thurandaut = 424+63+16 = 503 HTH skill on meritted mnk wearing Forefront cesti
Manibozho = 424+162+16 = 602 HTH skill on meritted monk

Base dmg:
Thurandaut = (503*0.11)+3 = 58
Manibozho = (602*0.11)+3 = 69

Goal DPs formulas:
Thurandaut:
((58+x)*60)/480 = 18.4
3480+60x = 18.4*480
60x = 8832-3480
x = 5352/60= +89 KA dmg

Manibozho:
((69+x)*60)/480 = 26.7
4140 +60x = 26.7*480
60x = 12816-4140
x=8676/60= +144 KA dmg

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Result: Thurandaut and Manibozho should have roughly +89 | +144 kick attacks base dmg on them respectively to balance Footworks dps with them on vs dps of Forefront Cesti or Rigor baghnacks respectively.

This would make footworks an actually useful, but not necessarily the best, ability for monks to experiment with using. As opposed to a completely terrible and pointless waste of time JA like it currently is.

[Karah]

Se has essentially thrown the job ability Footwork in the garbage. There is absolutely no way right now that Footworks is even remotely useful when we have so many weapons with up to triple the dps of even +2 feet dps on footworks.

No one in the history of ever, has ever cared, nor used footwork, more or less at any point for any reason.

It's not like it suddenly became useless, it was always useless.

For the most part kicks as a whole were always basically worthless except that they give an extra attack for tp.

[Urat]

No one in the history of ever, has ever cared, nor used footwork, more or less at any point for any reason.

It's not like it suddenly became useless, it was always useless.

For the most part kicks as a whole were always basically worthless except that they give an extra attack for tp.

This is kind of the problem, except now its become so differentiated in comparison that its no longer a loss of 5~10% dps but about 50~90% less DPs. Dropping from over 100 base dmg to 40~50 is a HUGE hit. At least in the past there have been brief times when footworks was useful but then bested by new equipment that came out.

SE has the option to fix this and make monk, possibly the least diversified job in the game with the most amount of cookie cutter builds, actually a little bit diversified with footwork monks being am option.

Otherwise, they've already admitted they are tight on JA id space to allocate for usage, so they should just cut out footworks entirely since it literally does nothing now except make the average monk 50~90% worse, and change it to an actually useful JA for some job.

Or just edit the values of 2 feet pieces and tack on a single stat to them and essentially completely fix the JA and make it actually kind of useful. Who knows?

If they do niether I damn well hope they never try complaining they dont have room for new JAs, cause they have one right here they can cut right out otherwise.

[darkhorror]

No one in the history of ever, has ever cared, nor used footwork, more or less at any point for any reason.

It's not like it suddenly became useless, it was always useless.

For the most part kicks as a whole were always basically worthless except that they give an extra attack for tp.

Actually geared correctly, and using OA2+ magian trial weapon it was overpowered compared to other jobs for a while.

[Zhronne]

No one in the history of ever, has ever cared, nor used footwork, more or less at any point for any reason.

Actually at level 80 and for a good part of the 85 cap MNK/SAM using OA and Footwork was likely the strongest DD in game, it was insane.

Altough it was kinda a way to exploit what has always been, as you said, a broken JA.
The fact it never really worked though doesn't mean that nobody cares or that it shouldn't be "fixed".
But I'll agree with the fact that given the current good position MNK is standing within the game balance (perhaps too good, up to the point I'm scared a nerf might come :'( ) and given their limited resources, SE should probably focus on other aspects of the game before caring about Footwork.

[Karah]

It really wasn't.

At any point you could've used OAT you should've had verethragna, before verethragna, MNK wasn't even on the map as an even semi useful job (though some people used it to tank things, and salvage).

It was more tied to the lack of subtle blow, and tp given vs the damage dealt.

It was neat for a couple days when it was broken.

[darkhorror]

It really wasn't.

At any point you could've used OAT you should've had verethragna, before verethragna, MNK wasn't even on the map as an even semi useful job (though some people used it to tank things, and salvage).

It was more tied to the lack of subtle blow, and tp given vs the damage dealt.

It was neat for a couple days when it was broken.

Yeah, no, and heck you could have had that even before useful emp weapons were around. Just because you didn't know how strong footwork was for a while it doesn't make it false.

[Karbuncle]

It really wasn't.

At any point you could've used OAT you should've had verethragna, before verethragna, MNK wasn't even on the map as an even semi useful job (though some people used it to tank things, and salvage).

It was more tied to the lack of subtle blow, and tp given vs the damage dealt.

It was neat for a couple days when it was broken.

Have to disagree on the Vereth Part. OAT h2h were pretty OP for a while with Tornado Kick and Footwork even considering Vereth (Outside Abyssea, of course). It was a short lived part of MNKs life but I had a OAT h2h sitting in my Mog Safe from when it was still a thing that i never finished, remember teaming up with MNKs to finish the trials cause everyone was doing em.

sh*t had its time.

ANWAY.

On the topic itself. Kick Attacks damage needs to be buffed in some way, either through new Equipment or through Item levels, But as it stands, its pathetic. It didn't always used to be pathetic, sure it was never built around like Double Attack, or hasn't been for a long time, but its been a part of the MNK job for a while, all the way back to Dune Boots era. Seeing it so far gone into obscurity cause of how far h2h have progressed is a little saddening. Doing 200-300 Dmg a hit (just spitballing its been a while) then seeing a 30-40 dmg hit thrown in (the kick) is a little WTF-ing.

So Footwork won't ever become super popular I imagine, But I'd like Kick Attacks to be buffed up.

[Karah]

I had a OAT h2h sitting in my Mog Safe from when it was still a thing that i never finished, remember teaming up with MNKs to finish the trials cause everyone was doing em.

A bunch of people made them, so they must've been good.

So I guess, all those people with MACC swords on blu, totally had the right idea.

Protip; just because people make them/use them/buy them, does not mean they're actually good.

OAT katanas... OAT swords... Eva daggers... Dancers using Joyuese I could go on for ever.

[Karbuncle]

Except they were good for the time around 80-85 Cap, moreso 80 cap, but a little at 85 when not everyone could rock Vereth as easily, in case people forgot Abyssea was actually Kinda hard back when we were progressing through it.

No one said they were good for any extended period of time, But back between the above mention caps, It was the current best set up, or close to the best to be at least on par. Anyway,

--BLU M.acc swords were actually popular with the JP because they believed the benefit of BLU was landing additional Effects of their spells, so for their playstyle, yah, M.acc swords were good for them. This trend bled over to others who, unfortunately used them wrong or misunderstood their value. So this one was half right, half wrong, depending on your understanding of the weapon and your intended goal. Universally good? god no.

--EVA Daggers we're one of the single best solo weapons for DNC and THF, offering higher DPS than any other evasion alternatives, and High evasion output, at the very least it was a worthwhile investment or worth the trade off for some content, thought not all. It was at the least worth having 1 for an offhand on difficult content or Medium tier content you were not capping evasion on (DC Dynamis) with limited potential DPS lost.

--OaT Sword was good for BLU for a short period if I recall, but quickly became crap past 80-85 cap, beyond that the uses were garbage.

--Joyeuse on DNC at 75 cap was more for TP Gain than damage, and was the best route to take for TP gain over damage. Useful only on weaker content like Campaign or something. Not a lot of love for DNC back then anyway.

Today? most of them suck, But for a small period of time they were the best for their uses. AGI Daggers stayed relevant up until SoA was released.