a thought

[Secondplanet]

I'm saying this before hand, this is not a "OMG THE GAMES DYING" or a Q.Q post so don't start please.

I have been noticing that the game isn't going a good direction for abit now, I have tried multiple times on multiple jobs to get the Megaboss wins (toji etc..) and every time i get turned down for not having the very items you get from those bosses, its the whole thing, what came first the chicken or the egg?

This game's player base is starting to judge all players based on gear alone and not on if they know the job or even have the skills. I've seen a monk with the oat's h2h and was barely able to hit anything during a plasm farm yet my friend was booted from the party to allow them to come along. Even during reive breaks i've seen summoners with amazing gear but their bloodpacts were only doing about 1/4 of what mine was.

I see 2 different ways to sort this kind of thing out, either have it that you can check peoples skill level's, just have a section under the gear with maybe top 2 skills for melee and magic. Or make it that these megabosses can be fought on a smaller scale but have low drop rates on items and give less plasm for it.

I just see the player base starting to loose the concept of strategy or skill over "I HIT ROCK WITH BIGGER STICK" logic. It makes me miss the old days were skill was preferred as much as gear if not in some cases more. But even with skills these days most people just use bot programs to get them and still don't learn the job, i'm always seeing summoner, whitemages, geomancers etc... hidden in corners and tucked away spamming their skills. Makes me laugh though when i see people ask for a veterans geos, how can you be a veteran to a job thats only months old.

So yeah, my wanting to stay with this game atm is hanging on a thin wire as to the upcoming layout of this game and if its just gonna get turned into mindless zerging WoW style gameplay i'll hang up my staff and say goodbye to all the fond memories before they get sullied anymore.

[Demon6324236]

3 things.

1. People do not look for skill specifically in terms of a players true skill, they have only gear to go by, if you ask someone if they suck as WHM but their answer determines if your bringing them to a Tojil run, what will they say? They will lie if need be I am sure, many people look at themselves and want to go, even if by doing so they not only get nothing while damning the rest of the group. I know some people like that, specifically, a WHM who sucks, but tries to get into every single Plasm run anyone in my LS is in. The only true way to go by a players skill, is to know them already, many people ask people they know already, thus, going by skill as much as they can. But once you look at people who you do not know, you can not tell what their skill is, and so one has to assume, if you can not see their skill, what can you see? Gear, you can see gear, and thus, people determine who a good player is via their gear. When you think about it, its hard to expect much else of someone, after all, its impossible to trust someone's word so easily that they are a good player, and its also impossible to see their skill without taking them, which could very well be damning your attempt before you even begin.

2. When GEO is involved, people asking for veterans are often asking for people with high skill levels who have gotten proper gear for their GEO, and understand what spells to use, as well as knowing where to stand. Many people have gimped skill levels, many have capped but no -DT gear or Refresh gear, and some who have those lack the brain power to mind where they stand at all times, as well as knowing where they need to stand. To ask for each of these things from a GEO in a shout, would take up your entire shout, simply putting it all under the word veteran is much easier than putting all of that detail in it, the details are shown when you ask to come GEO, and they play 20 questions with you. Also, people skilling up jobs, well, most jobs are easy to learn the basics for, more advanced things can be learnt in time and experience, but I have to feel expanding on this would only lead to the normal argument that old leveling let you learn your job & blah blah blah. To avoid that, I will leave it off saying simply that people skilling their job, sometimes already know the job, and those who goto things while gimp only further the idea that its impossible to tell how good someone is without knowing them.

3. In the case of people asking for people with Delve Boss Weapons(DBWs) to do the Delve Bosses, its understandable when you take a step back for a moment and look at how things are right now. We are fighting enemies which are supposed to be around level 119 I assume, as that is their reward's level. Right now, we have overpowered weapons, fair enough, but what they lack that we are getting in this upcoming update as of the 6th is the skill added to all of the weapons we have gotten since Adoulin was introduced. DBWs are powerful, and have a lot of good stats to help out, most players with them have show their skill at things, thus, easier to bring them, also, the enemies are still very hard by compare to what we are using to fight them. Once the update comes out on the 6th our weapons will have skill levels on them to make us much more powerful, much more accurate, and over all, make the DBs, much easier for us to take down. Right now, they are much harder, as we have a harder time hitting them and have much less attack. So when you think about it, a Rigor MNK after the update, will most likely beat a DBW MNK we have right now, which should mean the fights become much more accessible. In my opinion, till this update, we are fighting level 119 mobs with level 105 weapons so far as accuracy and attack is concerned, sure, our DMG is super high, but we have to make compromises for some things, and are overall weaker than we should be. So I think the update should at least help the DBW only problem, if not solve it completely.



Overall I agree with you for the most part, but some of this stuff does make sense in a way, so while I agree, I also see the other side of it all as well.

[Karah]

This game's player base is starting to judge all players based on gear alone and not on if they know the job or even have the skills. I've seen a monk with the oat's h2h and was barely able to hit anything during a plasm farm yet my friend was booted from the party to allow them to come along. Even during reive breaks i've seen summoners with amazing gear but their bloodpacts were only doing about 1/4 of what mine was.

So yeah, my wanting to stay with this game atm is hanging on a thin wire as to the upcoming layout of this game and if its just gonna get turned into mindless zerging WoW style gameplay i'll hang up my staff and say goodbye to all the fond memories before they get sullied anymore.

So much truth it's scary. We've been running on the assumption that skill > gear for YEARS now.

Delve has literally reversed this 11 year old statement.

Skill has no place at all in FFXI anymore. It's literally gear, and gear only. (and amount of gil).
Gil > Gear > Skill is the new standard....

Everyone thought abyssea ruined things? Letting people obtain level 99 with no talent for playing the job, what a joke. Delve completely destroyed it. You at least had to put in the time to become 99 in abyssea, now you just show up, 45 minutes later, you have the best possible gear in the game, with NO CLUE how to use it.... it's PATHETIC.

[Anjou]

I said it before and I'll say it again: This is why I won't do SoA content.

[Damane]

So much truth it's scary. We've been running on the assumption that skill > gear for YEARS now.

Delve has literally reversed this 11 year old statement.

Skill has no place at all in FFXI anymore. It's literally gear, and gear only. (and amount of gil).
Gil > Gear > Skill is the new standard....

Everyone thought abyssea ruined things? Letting people obtain level 99 with no talent for playing the job, what a joke. Delve completely destroyed it. You at least had to put in the time to become 99 in abyssea, now you just show up, 45 minutes later, you have the best possible gear in the game, with NO CLUE how to use it.... it's PATHETIC.

actually this is not true, we have been going now gear > skill in the last couple years. Abyssea was piss easy after a while, Voidwatch is a zerg contest with temp items that make you basicly invinicble. Legion? have 3 sch/blms and be done with it.

Delve requires you to have the coordiniation, skill AND gear to succeed. Some runs can be over before you reach the megaboss just because of 1 mistake. Some megabosses can still fuck you over because of misstimed stun or lag or stun starting to resist because dmg is weaksauce on it.
and Some runs are over because that 1 person on a key job is just horrible. Delve requires key jobs that cant be replaced with just anything: melees need to be on point, brds in melee pts need to be on point, sch/blms need to be on point, rdm (puller debuffer) needs to be on point, geos need to be on point, whms need to be on point, this leaves only room open for 3 spots that can be done with outside people from your shell... BRD in the sch pt (only needs 2 marches) and corsairs in melee pts (only need to swap PTs and keep up 4 rolls, 2 on each pt) even then people outside still manage to fuck up on those spots.

We try to avoid filling any key spot (DD RDM WHM SCH GEO BRD) with outside people, experience was just way too bad.

And so yes when inviting outside people, we evaluate them first via the gear they wear (however we dont make delve gear a necessarity its a bonus tough, we had outside people that were on point with no delve gear at all).

[Karah]

I can't post the reasons you're incorrect, as this official forum doesn't allow talk of such things that would require mentioning.

Delve doesn't take any co-ordination. If you've seen the people wearing delve boss gear, this is painfully obvious. The "stunners" are using ******** to do the stuns, they're not doing it themselves.

The whms are the only ones that really need to be good, and those ones are in the minority, severe minority.

[Solonuke]

Is there any suggestion what minimum gear you should get before entering Delve without having Delve or REM? It's a good reason to unsubscribe if this is how the game will be like in future updates.

[OmnysValefor]

I understand that all the gear in the world doesn't mean a darn thing, let's be honest.

Your gear determines your limits. If you have 13% haste and random store-tp, you're not going to get 100 tp anywhere near as fast as someone who has built themselves up.

If you have 2 refresh and 27% cure potency, you're not going to heal as hard. Now, your reaction time might be faster than the yagrush whm pumping out 900 cure IVs, but you'll oom faster, and your cures are less likely to save a life.

A scholar who fulltimes relic is not going to stun as well as an "sch stun gun".

There is no way to measure skill. Absolutely none. People that couldn't beat Maat back in the day got others to do it. Some RMT companies advertised that they'd beat Maat for you (not sure if they actually did or just took your account).

If there was a way to measure skill, I'm sure the communities in all games would embrace it, but there is not and if it's a choice between a light staff whm in a noble's or a Arka IV whm in a Heka's, and I have no personal experience, there's only one logical choice to make.

You'd make the same choice, and you can't deny it.

[Secondplanet]

Is there any suggestion what minimum gear you should get before entering Delve without having Delve or REM? It's a good reason to unsubscribe if this is how the game will be like in future updates.

I've seen a amazing post on here of what to do but i'd say take it with a grain of salt, every server/player is different and its up to them to decide if what you have is good enough, I've been booted out of a party cause they said my Toki's harness wasn't good enough to come with them.

[Rwolf]

Honestly, I just hope at some point the gear we get outside Delve makes it remotely possible to do Delve mega bosses without things like BRD and COR swapping. That's what has lost my personal interest in Delve. I'm a decent player, but I'll never acquire the "endgame skills" to join current Delve groups. The pressure to not miss a stun ever or doom the group, especially if due to lag which is out of your control. With also the annoyance of having to time dropping and switching parties to Soul Voice song the entire alliance is something that's not hard, I'm just not interested in it.

I'm personally not a big person of strategies that take advantage of the current rules of the game. Like swapping buff jobs to buff the entire alliance (honestly wish they should just make them alliance wide and be done with it). And having a healer outside of the alliance to avoid enmity. I understand why players do it, because it's a valid tactic given how strict some of the goals and limits are.

I just think overall it's bad game design to have players frequently relying on things that aren't part of the job they are on. No matter the debate, I'll never see "good at swapping parties" as a skill a BRD or COR should have. Again, I understand why it's done. I just find it to be horrible game design to have it be one of the only ways to win given how grossly overpowered mobs are in SoA and more than anything the small time limits you have in events like Delve.

I'm overall happy with getting some of that stuff, and I've been invited to Delve Mega Boss parties based on my skill and reputation. While I'd like Delve boss gear, I turn them down because I know that I loathe playing that way and would not become adept at those types of play styles that involve "stun everything and zerg with as rotating buffs as you can" type fights.

Kudos to anyone who finds that enjoyable. I sure don't.