possible oversight with the new ilvl system?

[Jeryhn]

THe problem is that all character growth now comes from equipment, instead of how it was earlier where you had some of your power come from gear and some of your power come from levels/merits. It makes everything extremely dependent on gear, gear that people don't have when they get there.

I wouldn't say this is completely accurate. The main benefit to leveling up isn't so much the stats you get doing it. Leveling up gives you more HP/MP, slightly higher attributes, more combat and magic skills to grind to cap, but most importantly: access to higher level gear.

When your power level was a combination of both, you could get a bit closer to the rest of the people by gaining exp/merits, which is a process that is not very gear dependent. Now, you have to have close to the best gear to get anywhere, and you can't get close to the best gear by just grinding trash mobs.

The thing is, you're assuming that the difference between two people remains the same given the same merits but different gear. This can't be further from the truth: in fact, the difference between two equally merited characters in the same categories but different gear becomes even wider.

Compare for instance, two Warriors, both at level 99 with full Double Attack merits. One warrior gears completely in STR and attack, the other warrior gears with 25.4% haste. Which do you think benefits more from the Double Attack merits? Obviously, the guy in Haste, because his increased hit frequency lends itself to more Double Attacks. The gap between these two players increases.

While this above example is pretty extreme in the sense that no sane WAR would ever gear in zero haste (or even could given the current selection of easily available gear), it nonetheless illustrates the point that the player with better gear outperforms the player without. The idea with merits is that they are small augmentations to your character, as it always has been, and those augmentations become even greater considering the gear that you have.

Having all growth come from items put people without the items at an extreme disadvantage. If the split between "natural" stat growth and item stat growth was split more evenly, it would be easier for people to catch up by playing the game in a way that was the most efficient for their playstyle and amount of playtime available.

You might have noticed how absolutely every item that has an item level is being addressed in the version update in a week. Notice how they all have major improvements to stats like combat skill and evasion? Even the Bayld-bought gear is being pretty drastically improved in terms of skill increases. These are stats you would naturally acquire through leveling up. This update in particular is designed to lessen that gap between the different tiers of players, while still keeping obvious tiering intact and rewarding the players who complete the high-end content.

The only thing concerning about item levels as a method to controlling character growth is encumbrance effects... But as we know given SE's history with making mobs like Absolute Virtue and Pandemonium Warden, SE does like making their cheap mobs...

Also, having item levels in themselves is not a problem. Items have always had "levels" after all. There has always been new items that were better than old items, and this would naturally not stop happening even if they stopped with writing the item levels on the items. If they stopped using them, it's not like delve gear would suddenly drop down to the strength of Abyssea/voidwatch gear. Splitting character growth between items and job stats just means you get 75% of your power from the gear you wear, rather than 99.2%

This is where I begin agreeing with you, but the honest realization you need to consider is that character growth has always been 90% or more gear-dependent. The one exception to this rule was the Abyssea era, where much of the gear was pretty sidegrade in comparison to previously existing gear, but the main character "growth" was controlled by indefinite enhancing effects like atma and abyssite that offered a multitude of effects much greater than both leveling up and gearing up combined.

Overall, I would say that the one thing I would like to see SE do to address natural character growth in terms of EXP/Merits or whatever are player HP levels. Its not fun to be one-shot all the time, and introducing mobs that can do this without restriction begs for cheap strategies like the current scholar stun-locking players currently use to get things done.

[FrankReynolds]

Look, here's the thing. Before, that warrior could go to the AH or do relatively easy events to get to say 20% haste and still hit the same X hit build. He could probably come within 10% or 15% accuracy of the best war if he tried. He probably took exactly the same amount of damage as the best war unless dude had a d ring.

But if it was two jobs that were 10-15 levels apart lol... not even a chance.

[Jeryhn]

Look, here's the thing. Before, that warrior could go to the AH or do relatively easy events to get to say 20% haste and still hit the same X hit build. He could probably come within 10% or 15% accuracy of the best war if he tried. He probably took exactly the same amount of damage as the best war unless dude had a d ring.

But if it was two jobs that were 10-15 levels apart lol... not even a chance.

I'm... not sure what point you're trying to make. Unless you're agreeing with me or something.

For Adooulin-related content, the tiering goes like this:
1) Do Colonization/Lair Reives and Adoulin assignemnts for Bayld, use Bayld to buy +67 skill weapons and Orvail/Thurandaut/Karieyh sets. Difficulty is roughly equivalent to Campaign battles or completing quests. Alternatively, do Skirmishes for +51 skill weapons. Difficulty is roughly equivalent to Assault battles. (This section counts as your easy tasks you can complete.)
2) Join Tier 1 Wildskeeper Reives with your extra Bayld after acquiring necessities. Also drops +67 skill weapons.
3) Now you have access to host Tier 1 Delve runs. Farm Plasm for +162 skill weapons and Bokwus/Mikinaak/Manibozho sets. Difficulty roughly equivalent to forming a Voidwatch alliance (with a little more necessary coordination). You can also kill new Tier 2 Naakuals for +188 skill weapons.
4) Kill current Delve bosses for +242 skill gear.

As you can see, there is a predefined path to doing things, that go from easy things you can complete solo, to small- or full-man party, to content that eventually leads up to alliance-level coordination.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm... not sure what point you're trying to make. Unless you're agreeing with me or something.

You said gear has always been the main means of progression and used (I'm assuming a 75) Warrior as an example (completely ignoring that back when leveling / meriting took months / years, it was a far more important / tangible form of progression than the meager stats on the gear). I simply pointed out why the current form of gear progression is actually not very similar at all.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Aside from teh point that it completely screws over bst, there's nothing too wrong with the lvl system.

[Jeryhn]

Stating that leveling up used to take longer and was thus the main barometer of character progression is a bit of a misnomer because not all jobs earned EXP at quite the same rate when non-Abyssea partying was the only thing available. Moreover that statement hasn't really been true since about 2006 when people realized that chaining T-VT mobs was more effective than bringing a full tank and turtling up on IT mobs... An advancement that was only made possible by, get ready because here it comes, increasing amounts of Haste being featured on gear.

Not to mention the only things you gained when leveling up were attributes and additional abilities or spells. Here's the concept: when everyone gets the same exact thing, that is not growth or advancement. That is simply everyone getting the same thing, i.e. stagnation.

[FrankReynolds]

Stating that leveling up used to take longer and was thus the main barometer of character progression is a bit of a misnomer because not all jobs earned EXP at quite the same rate when non-Abyssea partying was the only thing available.

Right, but leveling was still the largest part of the job. Getting end game gear had nowhere near the effect and usually took a lot less time with the exception of a few items with really crappy drop rates, and those items weren't necessary foir entrance into any other content. You could do end game event A without having obtained any drops from end game event B.

Moreover that statement hasn't really been true since about 2006 when people realized that chaining T-VT mobs was more effective than bringing a full tank and turtling up on IT mobs... An advancement that was only made possible by, get ready because here it comes, increasing amounts of Haste being featured on gear.

I don't think that even now there is a significant amount of haste gear before you hit 75 and I pointed out the relatively small differences between the best gear and the average, easily accessible gear anyways. I never said haste didn't exist.

Not to mention the only things you gained when leveling up were attributes and additional abilities or spells. Here's the concept: when everyone gets the same exact thing, that is not growth or advancement. That is simply everyone getting the same thing, i.e. stagnation.

The amount of various gear and the time consumed obtaining it kept people busy and forced variation and I never said that Exp parties were awesome. Everyone gets the same Oatixurs now. Stagnation.

[Hayward]

I'm... not sure what point you're trying to make. Unless you're agreeing with me or something.

For Adooulin-related content, the tiering goes like this:
1) Do Colonization/Lair Reives and Adoulin assignemnts for Bayld, use Bayld to buy +67 skill weapons and Orvail/Thurandaut/Karieyh sets. Difficulty is roughly equivalent to Campaign battles or completing quests. Alternatively, do Skirmishes for +51 skill weapons. Difficulty is roughly equivalent to Assault battles. (This section counts as your easy tasks you can complete.)
2) Join Tier 1 Wildskeeper Reives with your extra Bayld after acquiring necessities. Also drops +67 skill weapons.
3) Now you have access to host Tier 1 Delve runs. Farm Plasm for +162 skill weapons and Bokwus/Mikinaak/Manibozho sets. Difficulty roughly equivalent to forming a Voidwatch alliance (with a little more necessary coordination). You can also kill new Tier 2 Naakuals for +188 skill weapons.
4) Kill current Delve bosses for +242 skill gear.

As you can see, there is a predefined path to doing things, that go from easy things you can complete solo, to small- or full-man party, to content that eventually leads up to alliance-level coordination.

Those steps would have been valid had Wildskeeper Reives and Skirmishes been allowed to take root and/or Delve restricted to possessing the gear you mentioned. What's happening now is that people are paying gil to skip steps 2 and (oftentimes) 3 and get the Delve weapons. I'm sure you've seen the /yells yourself that people only want DPS jobs with Delve weapons to do Delve. Explain the logic in that because there's no way that should be remotely justifiable.

[Zumi]

People wanting delve weapons for farms is a community issue more then anything. People that play FFXI want the most efficient, easiest route to do stuff.

When the Aug 6th update gets here and all the SoA gear is getting majorly buffed with the new gear system which has a lot more stats on it. I am sure that will help some people out.

[Lordkrys]

People wanting delve weapons for farms is a community issue more then anything. People that play FFXI want the most efficient, easiest route to do stuff.

When the Aug 6th update gets here and all the SoA gear is getting majorly buffed with the new gear system which has a lot more stats on it. I am sure that will help some people out.

I sure hope it helps. For the last six years I've done All end game events on Blu. And Delve comes out and suddenly I get turned down for everything simply because I'm an immortal. Even if I was dual welding delve swords (with I unfortunately have neither) I still don't think people would invite me. It's definitely a problem with the player base.