possible oversight with the new ilvl system?

[OmnysValefor]

I think, in provoke's case, it couldn't keep up with with the numbers anymore. I think provoke just lost its edge.

Since the enmity update (right before the new weapons), provoke actually has considerably more relative enmity (vs. dmg/healing) than it did, it seems. It's just that it's not enough.

Tanking isn't going to matter until they address the problem that enmity cap exists and is obtainable withing a single 1hr.

Obviously, since this is something they have got to be aware of, they just don't care. The enmity update only made that more apparent.

Swapping accuracy for evasion, enmity, and ninja tool expertise is no different than Berserk/Defender or Hasso/Seigan. It's quite sensible. The hate multiplier of yonin simply needs a solid buff.

[Futan]

Swapping accuracy for evasion, enmity, and ninja tool expertise is no different than Berserk/Defender or Hasso/Seigan. It's quite sensible. The hate multiplier of yonin simply needs a solid buff.

I understand where you're coming from, but the difference is that w/ Berserk/Defender, you're swapping your attack power for defense or vice versa. In theory, you're doing the same w/ Yonin. However in practice, you're swapping the only way for you to build Enmity(damage) for more Enmity. It'd be like Berserk lowering accuracy instead of Defense. The debuff basically counteracts the buff. And actually in the case of Yonin, the debuff outweighs the buff in regards to building hate.

The result is the ability is useless on anything where that accuracy is required. So it's basically just for soloing/duoing weaker mobs. If they actually want us to be a tank, we're going to need more than just a solo ability.

[Rekin]

I think, in provoke's case, it couldn't keep up with with the numbers anymore. I think provoke just lost its edge.

Since the enmity update (right before the new weapons), provoke actually has considerably more relative enmity (vs. dmg/healing) than it did, it seems. It's just that it's not enough.

Tanking isn't going to matter until they address the problem that enmity cap exists and is obtainable withing a single 1hr.

Obviously, since this is something they have got to be aware of, they just don't care. The enmity update only made that more apparent.

Swapping accuracy for evasion, enmity, and ninja tool expertise is no different than Berserk/Defender or Hasso/Seigan. It's quite sensible. The hate multiplier of yonin simply needs a solid buff.

Honestly Omnys I think a good adjustment to how enmity abilities work in regards to enmity of others would be a good fix. Such as in XIV your main enmity ability on glad doesn't actually raise your enmity as much as it actually lowers the enmity of everyone else in your party.

This change in enmity abilities like flash and provoke would be a large step into making PLD/NIN/RUN real tanks again and would finally put some of enmity's glaring problems to rest.

[Zohno]

All this mix and match of level items is a mess, both for players and devs who will have to balance even more pieces since all of them will have to get the skills required to keep the character at that specific level. You risk to fall 10/20 lv down while swapping gear just because that pair of pants doesn't have enough skill.

[Demon6324236]

Thankfully they removed level correction from all of the new content, if they had not...

[Pootersmash]

Honestly, I feel they are trying to compensate for the missing player levels by adding skill, and stats to weapons and gear. However, it is an imperfect system in multiple ways. They seem to be basing the stat/skill gains on an average of all the jobs that can use that gear, and only certain stats and skills are raised, leaving others behind(using evasion instead of evasion skill, and macc instead of magic skills).

I feel a more solidified solution would be to use the average iLvl of your gear, to determine a boost to player level, and that boost then raises all stats and skills according to how much you would gain from gaining that many levels. This would also encourage players to use higher iLvl gear, to help raise that boost up. This also would allow the boost to be specific to each job, and not just be generic stats designed to cover all jobs.

Single wielding/2handed jobs would have the one weapon determine the weapon level, while dual wield/weapon+shield users would use the average of the two slots to determine the weapon level. The weapon level, then can be averaged with the gear levels as one number to determine all skill/stat boosts. Alternatively you can use weapon number to determine offensive skill boosts(including magic skills), while gear level determines defensive skills, and stat boosts.

An example would be a bst using a lvl 115 and 113 axe, averaged to 114 wLvl.
119 helm, 110 body, 110 hands, 99 legs, and 119 feet. averaged to 111 aLvl.(floored)

In that example, you would gain 15 levels worth of offensive skills, and 12 levels worth of defensive skills and stats, based on your current job(bst). or if you averaged them all together, iLvl 112, gaining 13 levels to all stats/skills.

There are many other ways it can be done, such as each armor peice giving 1/5'th of skill/stat boost for the iLvl(119 head giving 20 levels worth of skill/stats, divided by 5). This is basicly what you are trying to emulate right now, but this way it would not have to be placed directly on the gear, and will vary the boost based on your job.

Other options are always there as well, I just feel that the current method is sloppy and doesn't cover all the bases, leaving certain skills/stats behind for certain jobs.

[Mirage]

No, a better idea would be to scrap itemlevel and use a new merit-like system for innate character growth.

[Jeryhn]

I don't really understand the complains about item levels. This game has always been extremely dependent on gear in order to make particular strategies work. Examples:

- Gear haste for TP, WS sets for WS.
- Idle sets that include refresh, DT-%, etc.
- SCH/BLM stun sets.

Yes, I get how Encumbrance could completely neuter the effective vertical performance of players in various levels of content, but that was a thing long before item level even existed. Encumbrance has always effectively cut melee performance in battle - this is why jobs like Monk were so great for events like Salvage. If the devs thought that this status could be too debilitating for whatever content they have planned, they could just make mobs with encumbrance moves that don't effect your top row of equipment, and therefore no one would lose their effective level in the middle of doing level 150+ level content (particularly a boon for pet jobs).

The side effect of increasing character growth (e.g. increasing the experience level cap) in a similar exponential manner over controlling growth through item availability is that it gives little incentive for players to complete the content that the devs are releasing. Moreover, it removes the effective difference between different levels of players (casual, hardcore, what-have-you) and everyone starts becoming more of the same... very similar to the gear stagnation we were encountering for a long time when people wouldn't take anything less than a relic or empyrean weapon melee job to lol-worthy content like Voidwatch.

Item levels are a good thing, and while it seems implemented from weirdly to poorly at the moment, they are here to stay.

[Mirage]

THe problem is that all character growth now comes from equipment, instead of how it was earlier where you had some of your power come from gear and some of your power come from levels/merits. It makes everything extremely dependent on gear, gear that people don't have when they get there.

When your power level was a combination of both, you could get a bit closer to the rest of the people by gaining exp/merits, which is a process that is not very gear dependent. Now, you have to have close to the best gear to get anywhere, and you can't get close to the best gear by just grinding trash mobs.

Having all growth come from items put people without the items at an extreme disadvantage. If the split between "natural" stat growth and item stat growth was split more evenly, it would be easier for people to catch up by playing the game in a way that was the most efficient for their playstyle and amount of playtime available.

Also, having item levels in themselves is not a problem. Items have always had "levels" after all. There has always been new items that were better than old items, and this would naturally not stop happening even if they stopped with writing the item levels on the items. If they stopped using them, it's not like delve gear would suddenly drop down to the strength of Abyssea/voidwatch gear. Splitting character growth between items and job stats just means you get 75% of your power from the gear you wear, rather than 99.2%

[Jeryhn]

THe problem is that all character growth now comes from equipment, instead of how it was earlier where you had some of your power come from gear and some of your power come from levels/merits. It makes everything extremely dependent on gear, gear that people don't have when they get there.

I wouldn't say this is completely accurate. The main benefit to leveling up isn't so much the stats you get doing it. Leveling up gives you more HP/MP, slightly higher attributes, more combat and magic skills to grind to cap, but most importantly: access to higher level gear.

When your power level was a combination of both, you could get a bit closer to the rest of the people by gaining exp/merits, which is a process that is not very gear dependent. Now, you have to have close to the best gear to get anywhere, and you can't get close to the best gear by just grinding trash mobs.

The thing is, you're assuming that the difference between two people remains the same given the same merits but different gear. This can't be further from the truth: in fact, the difference between two equally merited characters in the same categories but different gear becomes even wider.

Compare for instance, two Warriors, both at level 99 with full Double Attack merits. One warrior gears completely in STR and attack, the other warrior gears with 25.4% haste. Which do you think benefits more from the Double Attack merits? Obviously, the guy in Haste, because his increased hit frequency lends itself to more Double Attacks. The gap between these two players increases.

While this above example is pretty extreme in the sense that no sane WAR would ever gear in zero haste (or even could given the current selection of easily available gear), it nonetheless illustrates the point that the player with better gear outperforms the player without. The idea with merits is that they are small augmentations to your character, as it always has been, and those augmentations become even greater considering the gear that you have.

Having all growth come from items put people without the items at an extreme disadvantage. If the split between "natural" stat growth and item stat growth was split more evenly, it would be easier for people to catch up by playing the game in a way that was the most efficient for their playstyle and amount of playtime available.

You might have noticed how absolutely every item that has an item level is being addressed in the version update in a week. Notice how they all have major improvements to stats like combat skill and evasion? Even the Bayld-bought gear is being pretty drastically improved in terms of skill increases. These are stats you would naturally acquire through leveling up. This update in particular is designed to lessen that gap between the different tiers of players, while still keeping obvious tiering intact and rewarding the players who complete the high-end content.

The only thing concerning about item levels as a method to controlling character growth is encumbrance effects... But as we know given SE's history with making mobs like Absolute Virtue and Pandemonium Warden, SE does like making their cheap mobs...

Also, having item levels in themselves is not a problem. Items have always had "levels" after all. There has always been new items that were better than old items, and this would naturally not stop happening even if they stopped with writing the item levels on the items. If they stopped using them, it's not like delve gear would suddenly drop down to the strength of Abyssea/voidwatch gear. Splitting character growth between items and job stats just means you get 75% of your power from the gear you wear, rather than 99.2%

This is where I begin agreeing with you, but the honest realization you need to consider is that character growth has always been 90% or more gear-dependent. The one exception to this rule was the Abyssea era, where much of the gear was pretty sidegrade in comparison to previously existing gear, but the main character "growth" was controlled by indefinite enhancing effects like atma and abyssite that offered a multitude of effects much greater than both leveling up and gearing up combined.

Overall, I would say that the one thing I would like to see SE do to address natural character growth in terms of EXP/Merits or whatever are player HP levels. Its not fun to be one-shot all the time, and introducing mobs that can do this without restriction begs for cheap strategies like the current scholar stun-locking players currently use to get things done.