why no mention of r/e/m

[FrankReynolds]

Seriously you guys, Adoulin expansion has NOT been out that long. You can't expect them to be super computer robot programmers, designers, debuggers, testers, storyline writers, music composition, copyright, concept artist, And so many other roles that go behind to creating a game to keep up with everyone's complaints and demand. Yeah I know, We love our REM. but they are human beings just like the rest of us. Damn I dropped out of programming C+ the first week because there's just so much behind coding that you can't expect them to do everything in such a short time.

Now keeping us waiting to implement something like Haste 2 for almost a year now that's something reasonable to argue about.

They were working on this expansion for a long time before it launched. People paid for it. It is way off from done. Selling a product and then delivering it in parts is pretty shady business.

[Oddwaffle]

I don't really care if its coding, plastic surgery or selling burgers, if you start taking people's money then you better well deserve it. If you are selling a product then you better make sure you are selling the things your buyers want. If you don't think your buyers will like your products then sell them to someone else. That's what it means to be in business.

RME at lv99 takes a lot of time and effort to build. I have seen people spending years building a relic only to lv95. I don't care if that triple-box guy can do that in less than couple weeks but to the guy spending years building his relic, it's A LOT OF EFFORT AND DEDICATION. SE just jumped out and say "all your efforts are worthless now, you can get something better in 45min with a bit of luck". How about just lower everyone's level to lv1 and erase all their items then make new and 'better' items that are easier to get? Wouldn't it be awesome? Aren't you excited about the better gear and items that are easier to make? Or will you just feel like you were slapped in the face and you're better off playing something else?

[Phafi]

RME does need to be the top, because they all take much longer than any other thing in the game. Why would someone go out to get a RME when they can get another weapon much faster or easier that is tied or better than them? Side grades in gear can be sidestepped by making gear that's actually good, putting more stats on single pieces to condense them down and make our inventories lighter. These things can be done to keep rewards relevant if they only did it, but to simply make weapons better than RMEs when they take so long is not acceptable, its the reason why half the Mythics are only made by the most die hard of people. Did you know that only Kincard and 1 other person have a Nagi listed on AH.com? You know why? Worthless weapon, always has been, probably will always be, and yet, they made it because of a love for the job probably, outside of that, its trash, and that's how all RME would become if they were not the top.

what's to say that the requirements won't get easier for them once they come out with something that takes roughly as long as a mythic to make? Also, it will kind of only be front line Mythics, emps and non utility relics (ragnawagon, etc) that will be usurped. if you think there's something that can replace a yagrush or carnwenhan, kenkonken burtgang or any other utility weapon i'm forgetting, please, do tell.

[Demon6324236]

what's to say that the requirements won't get easier for them once they come out with something that takes roughly as long as a mythic to make? Also, it will kind of only be front line Mythics, emps and non utility relics (ragnawagon, etc) that will be usurped. if you think there's something that can replace a yagrush or carnwenhan, kenkonken burtgang or any other utility weapon i'm forgetting, please, do tell.

Some can not be, others can, I have seen very few Apocs for instance as of late, Bravura is dead, Liberator is now something you swap in for before a fight if anything because unlike before, DPS just cant keep up even with its AM3 fulltimed. This things go on. You mention mage RMEs mostly, as well as KKK and Burtgang, I am assuming you mean KKK's effects on overheating, great, but that's a very expensive piece for just that 1 effect, which you would only really use with soloing with your pet, since you would be crashing your damage beyond any reasonable gain by using them instead of Rigors. Burtgang is for a job which does not DD anyways, so just like the mage ones, yes, it stays relevant.

If they made a new Adoulin version of a Mythic, called a superduper weapon, they made you have to do all of the Adoulin content, an item worth 1,000,000 Plasm, 100,000 Fragments from Skirmish, all Delve KIs and WK KIs before you can start the quest, as well as doing the full mission line. Then getting 1,000,000 Rank points worth of Airlixirs turned in, and so on. Do you know what would happen? People would be ok! These weapons would take forever to get, they would be harder, more effort worthy, and it would feel like they deserve it. Would every person in Adoulin have one of these? Hell no, it would be rare, like a Mythic, but we are in Adoulin now and we are farming Adoulin now so its easier, like when ToAU mattered. We would no longer talk about RME weapons, it would be RMES weapons, Relic, Emp, Mythic, and Superduper weapons, and that would be how it happened, incorporated by players because of its difficulty and power.

Do you see the difference between that and what happened now or what you were saying before? This would place another hard to get weapon in the game up there with them, even if it beat them, it would still be fine if they made it hard enough. Delve weapons, easy by compare... Boss weapons, they are not really hard, they are not time taking, yes, they require a good group of people, quite a large group, but they are not close to RMEs by compare. So in the end, I think that your idea would be fine, a new Mythic for jobs would be cool from Adoulin, so far as the utility ones, some were gone, others weren't, most of the ones that stayed are there because the job in question does not need TP or to engage the enemy, any that are on a job that does, screwed.

[Phafi]

you mentioned apoc and bravura, these weapons probably would be used if they were within a few points of the cap.

for example an item level 115 bravura (put its base damage maybe 8 higher than bloodbath) vs an item level 120(guessing that's what it is?) razorfury.
but as it stands now, we're comparing level 95-99 weapons against item level 113 or 120 weapons which is a significantly higher change in power than a post update against current content. I would expect the RMEs to be around item level 120-125 to be on par with delve round 2 assuming they come in at item level 125 which could keep them relevant for a bit at least, but not forever.

[Peepiopi]

My opinion is that weapons that take ridiculously long times to get should be cool, but not necessary for progression. I think that the developers sort of have that opinion too, and it's the right decision. Doing things that way is an inhibitor to new players, which is more damaging to the future of the game than catering to a few diehards.

I'm an older player just coming back to the game. I never bothered with the R/M/E weapons because it's not worth spending years doing. Delve is doable with Skirmish weapons which are just as good as RME when upgraded. But it seems to me that shouters require RME DDs really more because of status. "I put the time into getting these weapons, so I'm only allowing people with RMEs" sort of thing.

I think the RMEs shouldn't get upgraded any further, and just let them be trophies. I think they should keep the focus on the new content, and the new content only. The progression should be completely focused within SoA content, and they can't encourage that by incentivizing old content. They have to make the current content simple to progress, and the endgame items need to be challenging enough to earn, but not take unreasonably long to earn.

[Oddwaffle]

@Peepiopi: REM as trophies? As in put in your mog house and look pretty trophies? Or wear around in town? Or something like a title? There is a reason why you don't see people getting REM a lot. It's not because it's a 'trophies' it's because it takes a long time to get. It's like leveling your favorite job back in the day when you only get 4k exp an hour. Would you level a job to lv99 soloing for 2k exp an hour for years so you can wear a piece of armor in town and never use it again? Do you really mind if all your job levels get reset to lv1, lose all your gil and items and you get a "trophy" in your mog house for being such a high level character? In fact, I think this is a great idea. Reset everyone level to lv1 and erase their items and gils. Everyone start out fresh and certainly no more REM or picky shouts. Let's see how many people will be playing FFXI.

You said it yourself "It's not worth the effort" - that means it takes A LOT of effort to make. So much that those who actually put the effort in deserve the reward. There is a reason why you work for every piece of your equipment. You don't want that piece of equipment becoming useless. Maybe a single piece of equipment doesn't make you feel really bad but imagine everything you have worked for all became something unless and only to be put in mog house.

People didn't shout REM cause of status. You haven't think through this point clearly. Since REM takes a lot of dedication to make, people with REM on their jobs will tend to be better equipped and skillful. This is not always true. I have seen a fair number of people with empy weapons and being pretty bad at what they do. However, I'm talking on average, a person who are better equipped tend to be better at doing their job than someone poorly equipped. If you have to pick a random unknown person who is critical for your party, would you pick a person who is well equipped or someone totally fresh? Sure you can try talking to them and you can get to know them but 1st glance like checking a resume then you will check their equipments.

[Demon6324236]

My opinion is that weapons that take ridiculously long times to get should be cool, but not necessary for progression. I think that the developers sort of have that opinion too, and it's the right decision. Doing things that way is an inhibitor to new players, which is more damaging to the future of the game than catering to a few diehards.

Ok, listen, this is where people go wrong. There is no reason at all in the game right now that Delve requires Delve weapons, gear, or anything of the sort, it also does not require RME weapons. This is all done as a restriction by the players who lead parties, meaning, if people who do, in fact, make parties, do not want this restriction, then it will not be had. The content is not designed for RME weapons, it is players who shout for RME weapons only. I see Qilin shouts all the time asking for RMED only, do you know how easy Qilin is now? It dies in less than 2 minutes most of the time, its a stupid requirement. Upgrading RMEs is not them making them nessessary, its never been them doing that, its the players! If more people who do not care if people have them made parties, then no one would complain, but people never do that because they instantly realize the quality of their party is enhanced by bringing only those people.

I'm an older player just coming back to the game. I never bothered with the R/M/E weapons because it's not worth spending years doing.

It does not take a year to make a RME weapon... If you are worthy of having one, which to me means you are moderately well geared for the job you will be using it on primarily as well as knowing how to play it, then it takes a few months at most.

An Emp takes a couple days for the Lottery pop NMs, meaning a total of maybe 40 hours, does this seem like a long time? Well sure, but in this time, play something else, watch something, do something else in your life, come back every 5 minutes to kill a random mob and go afk again. Its boring, but its easy. Sometimes you can team up with people doing the same trial, if so, awesome, alternate whos on watch, take a nap, watch a movie, goto work, walk your dog, whatever you want. VNMs are easy, get a friend or two with a DD & healer or if you can fill in one of those, do it, tada, you have yourself well on your way, might even find a party for these, sometimes large, sometimes small. Then comes Abyssea NMs, they drop +2s, any new or returning player needs these, some long time players need them too, even I do, so that's not to hard to get help for, but the quality might vary. Now, you have an Emp.

A Relic takes doing Dynamis, depending how well you do it, this can take between 2 months, and 6 months, of doing a 2 hour run every day, but its only 2 hours, if you have more time, get money, buy currency, you will walk away with a Relic even sooner. If you can not solo Dynamis on your job using /DNC or another appropriate subjob, you do not need or deserve the Relic so far as I am concerned, so you should not bother worrying about it, and should instead focus on getting geared and skilled at the job. If you are to stubborn to use the proper subjob, kindly remind yourself that everything has a time and place, Dynamis is the place where /DNC is the most relevant thing around for almost every job.

Mythics, I wont even write all of the work out for, yes, they take 5~6 months, ignore them if you want, they are already trophies for the most part.

Delve is doable with Skirmish weapons which are just as good as RME when upgraded. But it seems to me that shouters require RME DDs really more because of status. "I put the time into getting these weapons, so I'm only allowing people with RMEs" sort of thing.

Its because of the level of damage they output. Even if Skirmish weapons are the same, they are augmented, and very few people do Skirmish, its the same reason why many people used to exclude Mythics, no one had them. If they removed RME weapons completely what do you think people would shout for now that Delve was 'fixed'? Delve weapons only, ignoring those who did not get in first, and guess what, right now, it would work, because it already does, I see enough people ignore RME weapons right now in Delve to prove it.

I think the RMEs shouldn't get upgraded any further, and just let them be trophies. I think they should keep the focus on the new content, and the new content only. The progression should be completely focused within SoA content, and they can't encourage that by incentivizing old content.

So abandon the last 10 years worth of game, and focus only on what is new and being worked on now, that sounds brilliant.

They have to make the current content simple to progress, and the endgame items need to be challenging enough to earn, but not take unreasonably long to earn.

I agree, they do need to be challenging rather than time taking, sadly, that does not work with this player base because we do whatever we can to win, like stun-locking and such, so content is never really 'hard' more that its annoying and broken without exploiting certain abilities.

[Phafi]

Ok, listen, this is where people go wrong. There is no reason at all in the game right now that Delve requires Delve weapons, gear, or anything of the sort, it also does not require RME weapons.

plasm farming*

[Demon6324236]

plasm farming*

NMs don't either, they just require a good coordinated party, something which should be expected from the content meant to be the 3 hardest pieces of content in the game as of right now when you think about it. Again, if you go only by shouts which include this, you are only seeing people who want only that, it does not mean that it can only be done with that. If you want to do it but leaders will not let you join, shout for it yourself, I have had to do it in the past myself, hated it, but it gets the job done, and everyone who is like you will be grateful for it if you let them join, if not, can you say your any better?