I miss the minds that created Spirits Within and Atonement. Especially atonement. They saw a glimmer of the problem, but only for a moment.
I miss the minds that created Spirits Within and Atonement. Especially atonement. They saw a glimmer of the problem, but only for a moment.
Aye, excellent concept, a damn fine execution then...nothing. Like...really, what happened to that stroke of intelligence after Atonement was implemented? The entire concept just fell off the face of the planet.
A WS that has damage varying with Enmity. Brilliant! Caps at ~750? Ok, cool. That isn't bad damage for its time, especially by PLD standards. New add on expansions! I wonder what enmity goodies come of this!
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Not a damn thing. Atonement and its concept were never improved or expanded upon and immediately fell behind Chant Du Cygne AND Vorpal Blade because of crit properties. They haven't recovered since.
Yeah, Atonement was our <every samurai ws>. It took the stat we loved, we stacked, we did the best we could with, and that was the modifier. Spirits Within was a good concept too. It also took a stat we loved, we stack, and made a modifier out of it.
In todays time, we should be able to see 2k Atonements, at least. Our tp gain is so unreliable, and slow--if we're not being hit and blocking that with ochain, that we should be cranking out a strong ws when we have the tp.
Alas, Atonement is ultimately limited by the crappy enmity cap that has existed since the dawn of Vana'Diel's creation. I'm not saying Atonement should have infinite potential as if there was an infinite enmity cap, but it's currently weighed down in such a way that it CAN'T be useful compared to everything else available.
If we want to get really technical though, it isn't. 750 is a hardcoded limitation into the WS; it actually doesn't have anything to do with the value that enmity caps at.Alas, Atonement is ultimately limited by the crappy enmity cap that has existed since the dawn of Vana'Diel's creation.
When enmity for the WS is capped, it should be doing 720 damage at 100 TP. It could technically be capable of way more than this with higher TP, but no matter how much TP you have, it stops at 750. (If you have 300 TP, you can actually be somewhere quite south of capped enmity and still hit 750 damage.)
In other words, even if they "adjusted" the enmity system, Atonement still wouldn't be capable of hitting more than 750s (unless certain factors are at play, like increased damage taken or whatnot) unless the WS itself also got specifically adjusted.
Admitedly, this was because classes and jobs lacked damage mitigation cooldowns, whereas in other games each class has their own damage mitigation cooldown already built-in.
Provided SE is willing to mess with databases, you have a good opportunity for this with Holy if they split it to Holy (WHM) and Holy (PLD). PLD version being paltry damage but having massive enmity modifiers. PLD's MP pool is small enough that it discourages spamming it (not to mention it has a lengthy recast timer as is), so it might work out.
I was never crazy for either because they scale off factors that fluctuate during combat, thus making them unreliable. Tanking, like healing, is dependent on reliability (though RNG can be used to spice things up if within the right context).
As a concept they're interesting, but that's as far as it got with me.
* The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line.
As an Ochain owner, I can think back to the days before I had the shield (or even knew it existed) and how frustrating it was to be a paladin trying to mitigate damage. I basically always /nin if I was doing any serious tanking because relying on shield just wouldn't cut it. When reprisal was later introduced it helped ease the pressure between shadow casts, but the lack of reliable blocking still made tanking on pld very difficult against high level mobs.
After spending a lot of time and hard work on obtaining Ochain, I'm a bit sensitive to having a shield of equivalent power released that can be obtained more easily (such as on the AH, or by fighting a single NM like in Delve). Even with my Ochain only being the level 90 version, the work I spent at the time took months in abyssea and I feel it should represent it's value still.
However, like I mentioned above, I know what it's like trying to play paladin and being required to have Ochain or Aegis to participate in events - it's frustrating and should be improved. That's why I agree with the OP that the window needs to be narrowed (new shields made available) but caution it should be done with balance. The R/M/E v.s. Delve weapons is a great example of how not to do this. I spent months farming Dynamis leading up to SoA: acquired Ragnarok, leveled it to 95, and then found out you can obtain Bereaver by fighting a single NM (a much better Greatsword, even without augments) soon after SoA's release. A very big disappointment.
Last edited by Oakrest; 06-08-2013 at 11:06 PM.
Originally Posted by the Advent Children
Fixing atonement won't do a damn thing for PLD. In turtle mode with Sword and Board their already an order of magnitude behind the DD's in damage, their not going to hold any semblance of hate even if the DD's throttle down.
We're really down to the fact that PLD simply doesn't have any real hate tools. It's got "nifty abilities" but none of those modify or otherwise change the base enmity mechanics of the monster. PLD's DPS output is so laughable that it can't reliably use the existing enmity system. Adjusting the current enmity system in any meaningful way isn't going to help PLD much at all, their simply too far behind. We're at the point where PLD (and potentially others) need their abilities severely redefinition (not just adjusted).
Personally my vote is for a modification to Cover. If the target is a PC then it functions like it does now, if the target is a monster then it forces the monster to target only the user for it's duration. Extend it's duration and lower it's recast to such that a PLD can keep it up ~75% of the time with non-PLD's having ~50% of the time.
That's pretty much the only way your going to have a real "tank" in FFXI right now.
Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....Originally Posted by Raelix
Simply because PLD use since the last year or two of 75 cap was to be the safety net.
New content comes out > PLDs are used
New content is figure out > PLDs are useless
The cycle has been going on since sometime in '06-07 when people started using RDM and DRK tanks over PLD.
When Adoulin first came out I was pumped to use my Excal/Almace/Ochain/Aegis, now PLD is back in storage.
Masamune
Arma up next!
Eh, i'm with ya on Spirits Within. Finding the opportunity to ws @ 100% hp wasn't always easy. Enmity was controllable, save for hate resets... I'll get back to hate resets in a minute.
There's no need to mess with the database. Give PLD a trait that causes our divine and healing spells to cause more enmity. Kind of the opposite of Tranquil Heart.
Still PLD's damage would have to be looked at if they want us to keep a position in zergs, and in this day and age, everything becomes a zerg sooner or later. I'm happy with my paladin, I really am, but we all know we've no position in zergs. It's ridiculous for an Aegischain to ask for "moar", because the job is quite powerful, but it is so severely lacking offensively.
About hate resets...
I don't even know what to say. They'd make for an interesting concept if tanks had some kind of answer to them. Group hate resets aren't so bad, but when you're DD are @9k enmity and you're suddenly at 0 and you're left with only voke, flash, your ja's, and how fast you cans wing your sword to catch up, it's a long road.
Last edited by OmnysValefor; 06-09-2013 at 02:03 AM.
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