Page 18 of 24 FirstFirst ... 8 16 17 18 19 20 ... LastLast
Results 171 to 180 of 237
  1. #171
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,186
    I miss the minds that created Spirits Within and Atonement. Especially atonement. They saw a glimmer of the problem, but only for a moment.
    (0)

  2. #172
    Player Alerith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    282
    Character
    Alerith
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by OmnysValefor View Post
    I miss the minds that created Spirits Within and Atonement. Especially atonement. They saw a glimmer of the problem, but only for a moment.
    Aye, excellent concept, a damn fine execution then...nothing. Like...really, what happened to that stroke of intelligence after Atonement was implemented? The entire concept just fell off the face of the planet.

    A WS that has damage varying with Enmity. Brilliant! Caps at ~750? Ok, cool. That isn't bad damage for its time, especially by PLD standards. New add on expansions! I wonder what enmity goodies come of this!

    ...
    ...
    ...

    Not a damn thing. Atonement and its concept were never improved or expanded upon and immediately fell behind Chant Du Cygne AND Vorpal Blade because of crit properties. They haven't recovered since.
    (0)

  3. #173
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,186
    Yeah, Atonement was our <every samurai ws>. It took the stat we loved, we stacked, we did the best we could with, and that was the modifier. Spirits Within was a good concept too. It also took a stat we loved, we stack, and made a modifier out of it.

    In todays time, we should be able to see 2k Atonements, at least. Our tp gain is so unreliable, and slow--if we're not being hit and blocking that with ochain, that we should be cranking out a strong ws when we have the tp.
    (0)

  4. #174
    Player Alerith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    282
    Character
    Alerith
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by OmnysValefor View Post
    Yeah, Atonement was our <every samurai ws>. It took the stat we loved, we stacked, we did the best we could with, and that was the modifier. Spirits Within was a good concept too. It also took a stat we loved, we stack, and made a modifier out of it.

    In todays time, we should be able to see 2k Atonements, at least. Our tp gain is so unreliable, and slow--if we're not being hit and blocking that with ochain, that we should be cranking out a strong ws when we have the tp.
    Alas, Atonement is ultimately limited by the crappy enmity cap that has existed since the dawn of Vana'Diel's creation. I'm not saying Atonement should have infinite potential as if there was an infinite enmity cap, but it's currently weighed down in such a way that it CAN'T be useful compared to everything else available.
    (0)

  5. #175
    Player Fynlar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    352
    Character
    Fynlar
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Alas, Atonement is ultimately limited by the crappy enmity cap that has existed since the dawn of Vana'Diel's creation.
    If we want to get really technical though, it isn't. 750 is a hardcoded limitation into the WS; it actually doesn't have anything to do with the value that enmity caps at.

    When enmity for the WS is capped, it should be doing 720 damage at 100 TP. It could technically be capable of way more than this with higher TP, but no matter how much TP you have, it stops at 750. (If you have 300 TP, you can actually be somewhere quite south of capped enmity and still hit 750 damage.)

    In other words, even if they "adjusted" the enmity system, Atonement still wouldn't be capable of hitting more than 750s (unless certain factors are at play, like increased damage taken or whatnot) unless the WS itself also got specifically adjusted.
    (1)

  6. #176
    Player Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    658
    Character
    Duelle
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Alerith View Post
    You can see an very simplified version of this in FFXIV 1.0. where if you wanted to fight Ifrit, you had to have the Sentinel job ability or you were barred from joining some parties.
    Admitedly, this was because classes and jobs lacked damage mitigation cooldowns, whereas in other games each class has their own damage mitigation cooldown already built-in.

    Quote Originally Posted by OmnysValefor View Post
    There are ways around that though too. Giving paladin a massive enmity ability to open a fight with (and Ninja and Runefencer as well) is just common sense. PLD isn't present in zerges for the obvious reason. Voke, flash, and a mediocre ws might keep hate off the first round of ws's (it might, but probably won't) and by the second round, someone else is tanking.
    Provided SE is willing to mess with databases, you have a good opportunity for this with Holy if they split it to Holy (WHM) and Holy (PLD). PLD version being paltry damage but having massive enmity modifiers. PLD's MP pool is small enough that it discourages spamming it (not to mention it has a lengthy recast timer as is), so it might work out.

    Quote Originally Posted by OmnysValefor View Post
    I miss the minds that created Spirits Within and Atonement. Especially atonement. They saw a glimmer of the problem, but only for a moment.
    I was never crazy for either because they scale off factors that fluctuate during combat, thus making them unreliable. Tanking, like healing, is dependent on reliability (though RNG can be used to spice things up if within the right context).

    As a concept they're interesting, but that's as far as it got with me.
    (0)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line.

  7. #177
    Player Oakrest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    151
    Character
    Oakozric
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    As an Ochain owner, I can think back to the days before I had the shield (or even knew it existed) and how frustrating it was to be a paladin trying to mitigate damage. I basically always /nin if I was doing any serious tanking because relying on shield just wouldn't cut it. When reprisal was later introduced it helped ease the pressure between shadow casts, but the lack of reliable blocking still made tanking on pld very difficult against high level mobs.

    After spending a lot of time and hard work on obtaining Ochain, I'm a bit sensitive to having a shield of equivalent power released that can be obtained more easily (such as on the AH, or by fighting a single NM like in Delve). Even with my Ochain only being the level 90 version, the work I spent at the time took months in abyssea and I feel it should represent it's value still.

    However, like I mentioned above, I know what it's like trying to play paladin and being required to have Ochain or Aegis to participate in events - it's frustrating and should be improved. That's why I agree with the OP that the window needs to be narrowed (new shields made available) but caution it should be done with balance. The R/M/E v.s. Delve weapons is a great example of how not to do this. I spent months farming Dynamis leading up to SoA: acquired Ragnarok, leveled it to 95, and then found out you can obtain Bereaver by fighting a single NM (a much better Greatsword, even without augments) soon after SoA's release. A very big disappointment.
    (0)
    Last edited by Oakrest; 06-08-2013 at 11:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by the Advent Children

    Sephiroth: Tell me what you cherish most... give me the pleasure of taking it away.
    Cloud: You just don't get it at all... there's not a thing I don't cherish.

  8. #178
    Player saevel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,346
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Fixing atonement won't do a damn thing for PLD. In turtle mode with Sword and Board their already an order of magnitude behind the DD's in damage, their not going to hold any semblance of hate even if the DD's throttle down.

    We're really down to the fact that PLD simply doesn't have any real hate tools. It's got "nifty abilities" but none of those modify or otherwise change the base enmity mechanics of the monster. PLD's DPS output is so laughable that it can't reliably use the existing enmity system. Adjusting the current enmity system in any meaningful way isn't going to help PLD much at all, their simply too far behind. We're at the point where PLD (and potentially others) need their abilities severely redefinition (not just adjusted).

    Personally my vote is for a modification to Cover. If the target is a PC then it functions like it does now, if the target is a monster then it forces the monster to target only the user for it's duration. Extend it's duration and lower it's recast to such that a PLD can keep it up ~75% of the time with non-PLD's having ~50% of the time.

    That's pretty much the only way your going to have a real "tank" in FFXI right now.
    (2)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  9. #179
    Player Taint2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    453
    Character
    Dirtyfinger
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    SAM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Fynlar View Post
    PLD isn't really useful for fighting Delve NMs, for the same reasons we didn't really use them for fighting anything else (like in Voidwatch; if you wanted someone to have Shield Bash you just made a BRD sub /PLD). The hate system just doesn't allow for PLD to keep hate, and even if it could, most of the toughest mobs will just AoE your frontline to death anyway, making having a tank pointless.

    PLD is currently used for *holding* NMs in fracture, not fighting them. So yeah, the fact that they aren't being used for boss runs (where the goal is to kill all of the NMs, not hold them) should come as a surprise to nobody. I've honestly never been sure why people bother bringing PLDs for things like field NMs; they just seem like wastes of an alliance slot tbh.

    Simply because PLD use since the last year or two of 75 cap was to be the safety net.

    New content comes out > PLDs are used
    New content is figure out > PLDs are useless

    The cycle has been going on since sometime in '06-07 when people started using RDM and DRK tanks over PLD.

    When Adoulin first came out I was pumped to use my Excal/Almace/Ochain/Aegis, now PLD is back in storage.
    (6)
    Masamune
    Arma up next!

  10. #180
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    @Omnys

    Provided SE is willing to mess with databases, you have a good opportunity for this with Holy if they split it to Holy (WHM) and Holy (PLD). PLD version being paltry damage but having massive enmity modifiers. PLD's MP pool is small enough that it discourages spamming it (not to mention it has a lengthy recast timer as is), so it might work out.

    I was never crazy for either because they scale off factors that fluctuate during combat, thus making them unreliable. Tanking, like healing, is dependent on reliability (though RNG can be used to spice things up if within the right context).

    As a concept they're interesting, but that's as far as it got with me.
    Eh, i'm with ya on Spirits Within. Finding the opportunity to ws @ 100% hp wasn't always easy. Enmity was controllable, save for hate resets... I'll get back to hate resets in a minute.

    There's no need to mess with the database. Give PLD a trait that causes our divine and healing spells to cause more enmity. Kind of the opposite of Tranquil Heart.

    Still PLD's damage would have to be looked at if they want us to keep a position in zergs, and in this day and age, everything becomes a zerg sooner or later. I'm happy with my paladin, I really am, but we all know we've no position in zergs. It's ridiculous for an Aegischain to ask for "moar", because the job is quite powerful, but it is so severely lacking offensively.

    About hate resets...

    I don't even know what to say. They'd make for an interesting concept if tanks had some kind of answer to them. Group hate resets aren't so bad, but when you're DD are @9k enmity and you're suddenly at 0 and you're left with only voke, flash, your ja's, and how fast you cans wing your sword to catch up, it's a long road.
    (0)
    Last edited by OmnysValefor; 06-09-2013 at 02:03 AM.

Page 18 of 24 FirstFirst ... 8 16 17 18 19 20 ... LastLast