95 And Below RME Weapons

[Jerbob]

In my opinion, the argument can be summed up with two statements and their outcomes.

Level 99 R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, at the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: lv. 99 R/E/M proposed upgrades, which will require me to complete an as-of-yet unspecified task to restore my weapon to usefulness.

Lower level R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, close to (but not at) the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: I must make a very significant expenditure of time and money before completing the same as-of-yet unspecified task to create a more powerful weapon. There is no option to restore my weapon to its old level of usefulness, which was my original requirement.

The compaints made by level 99 R/E/M holders can just as legitimately be made by those that hold lower tier weapons. No-one wants to lose the work they put into their weapons, which in all cases is significant - just to varying degrees. I think denying <lv99 weapon users the ability to restore their weapons to their original level of usefulness is simply unjustifiable. They made their <lv99 weapon knowing what they would get - something good, but not exceptional. SE has taken that away from them, and they have a right to want their weapon restored.

Weapon users with <lv99 weapons wouldn't get anything "free" from this adjustment - at least not anything more than lv99 weapon users will. They will still end up with an inferior weapon. However, they will end up with a weapon that is "as inferior" as they originally intended - which is the only reasonable outcome.

As for problems like "but level 80 players will have super-powerful weapons that outclass all others at level 80", just bash a latent effect for DMG on the weapon to activate at a more appropriate level. It's not difficult to find solutions to these issues.

[Return1]

In my opinion, the argument can be summed up with two statements and their outcomes.

Level 99 R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, at the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: lv. 99 R/E/M proposed upgrades, which will require me to complete an as-of-yet unspecified task to restore my weapon to usefulness.

Lower level R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, close to (but not at) the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: I must make a very significant expenditure of time and money before completing the same as-of-yet unspecified task to create a more powerful weapon. There is no option to restore my weapon to its old level of usefulness, which was my original requirement.

The compaints made by level 99 R/E/M holders can just as legitimately be made by those that hold lower tier weapons. No-one wants to lose the work they put into their weapons, which in all cases is significant - just to varying degrees. I think denying <lv99 weapon users the ability to restore their weapons to their original level of usefulness is simply unjustifiable. They made their <lv99 weapon knowing what they would get - something good, but not exceptional. SE has taken that away from them, and they have a right to want their weapon restored.

Weapon users with <lv99 weapons wouldn't get anything "free" from this adjustment - at least not anything more than lv99 weapon users will. They will still end up with an inferior weapon. However, they will end up with a weapon that is "as inferior" as they originally intended - which is the only reasonable outcome.

As for problems like "but level 80 players will have super-powerful weapons that outclass all others at level 80", just bash a latent effect for DMG on the weapon to activate at a more appropriate level. It's not difficult to find solutions to these issues.

Your logic is horribly flawed. First off, 99REM holders will have to do some trial(s) to upgrade their 99s damage, they aren't just being handed a crapton of damage. 95 and below is an INCOMPLETE WEAPON. Finish your goddamned weapon then complain about it being bad. You don't build a bike without a chain then complain that bikes suck because yours doesn't go as fast as someone that put a f*cking chain on theirs.

Why shouldn't you have to do what I, and thousands of others, have done several times to be competitive with me/us?


Also saying it's stupid for SE to update REMs is the words of a true fool. REMs were offered as the cream of the crop and talk a lot longer to obtain than any typical weapon. In a game like FFXI there's supposed to by an effort to reward ratio. New adoulin weapons for the most part are easy as hell to obtain. The delve bosses are already being curb stomped by the complex formula of THROW MORE RANGERS AT IT GUYS.

Those weapons' effort values don't even warrant them being nearly as good as REM weapons. Each 75 relic made requires more man hours to make than any single delve boss drop, and 99ing a Relic takes more than twice that effort on my server. A 99 relic takes over 100% more effort to obtain than a delve weapon, and you think it's lazy to ask for an update to them? GTFO.

[Babekeke]

Asking for 75-95 weapons to be boosted is double-lazy. Too lazy to complete the original trials, too lazy to get new weapons from SoA.

Spoken like a true close-minded idiot. Most people who made a level 90 empy or 95 relic but didn't take it further, have not done so because they simply don't have the time to invest into such a thing.

I'll get flamed for bringing this up, but the fact is it's true, plain and simple: People who have full-time jobs and families or friends that they like to spend time on can have significantly less time to put into upgrading their weapons. Sure, you'll come back with "if you don't have the time, then don't play an MMORPG" whilst completely failing to realise that many people are very happy with playing just a couple of days a week, or only a couple of hours a day.

Good for all those that don't work, don't socialise, or maybe just don't sleep. You can invest enough time to do salvage, dynamis and limbus every day, and spend the rest of your time farming plasm to make gil and complete a 99 empy or relic in a couple of weeks. Other people are content to be second best whilst still participate in events with friends that don't care if it takes a little longer to do than the most elite groups

Your logic is horribly flawed. First off, 99REM holders will have to do some trial(s) to upgrade their 99s damage, they aren't just being handed a crapton of damage. 95 and below is an INCOMPLETE WEAPON. Finish your goddamned weapon then complain about it being bad. You don't build a bike without a chain then complain that bikes suck because yours doesn't go as fast as someone that put a f*cking chain on theirs.

See above.

Why shouldn't you have to do what I, and thousands of others, have done several times to be competitive with me/us?

You obviously didn't read what he said:

When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a continuum of weapon power - in my case, close to (but not at) the top.

He's not asking to be competitive with you/them (unless you/them gear/play much worse than him), he's just asking to be closer, relative to the amount of work that he and others have put in.

It may be that the people with level 90 empys/95 relics are working towards making the 99 versions, but with the amount of time that they can put into doing so, it will take many months to reach 99. This means for them that their weapon that was 'acceptable' for most end-game content has all-of-a-sudden become (in some cases) out-classed by AH weapons, and completely outclassed by all of the new r/e weapons.

I can see it from both sides of the coin, but I think that enabling non-99 weapons to be upgraded would be shooting themselves in the foot, as if people can get a better weapon without doing the plates/rift/marrows, then they will - so noone will bother farming the items and the price will shoot right up, making people even less likely to want to upgrade.

[xiozen]

Your logic is horribly flawed. First off, 99REM holders will have to do some trial(s) to upgrade their 99s damage, they aren't just being handed a crapton of damage.

I honestly think that's exactly what's going to happen... R/M/E holders have already finished the trials; the producer has already said they do not intend to increase the weapons like the method previously used (TotM), he repeatedly used the word "revamp"--a revamp is not your typical upgrade... revamp literally means to "re-do" or "do-over"...so yea, I truly believe the Devs intend to hand the R/M/E's a crapton of damage.

[Aezelas]

I honestly think that's exactly what's going to happen... R/M/E holders have already finished the trials; the producer has already said they do not intend to increase the weapons like the method previously used (TotM), he repeatedly used the word "revamp"--a revamp is not your typical upgrade... revamp literally means to "re-do" or "do-over"...so yea, I truly believe the Devs intend to hand the R/M/E's a crapton of damage.

They clearly said they won't bring a progressive upgrade for e/r/m, and gave ToM as reference.
I think we have to understand it will be the last upgrade they'll bring for e/r/m, and only because of e/r/m owners' anger.
It's sort of an excuse to players for that huge delve release mistake.

What i understood is that they do not intend to make e/r/m the top weapons forever.
This improvised boost is for them a way to get rid of players anger (and ragequitting); they want us to accept there will be better weapons and they want us to work on them.

This was their intention with delve release, but it was too sudden, too soon, and they didn't expect players reaction.
I think they'll still be going that way.

[xiozen]

Level 99 R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, at the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

I like your post, but this statement I "believe" isn't entirely what may happen... Matsui said, "revamp" the definition of revamp is =

/rēˈvamp/
Verb
Give new and improved form, structure, or appearance to: "revamp her image".
Noun
An act of improving the form, structure, or appearance of something.

...and the word revamp is synonymous with alter, make over, modify, recast, redo, refashion, remake, remodel, change, revise, rework, vary... so in effect, short of introducing a patch/update that will change the stats of the level 99 R/M/Es... anything else requiring any work... keep in mind, we already did the work... SE should only be making the needed adjustments.

[Afania]

In my opinion, the argument can be summed up with two statements and their outcomes.

Level 99 R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, at the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: lv. 99 R/E/M proposed upgrades, which will require me to complete an as-of-yet unspecified task to restore my weapon to usefulness.

Lower level R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, close to (but not at) the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: I must make a very significant expenditure of time and money before completing the same as-of-yet unspecified task to create a more powerful weapon. There is no option to restore my weapon to its old level of usefulness, which was my original requirement.

The compaints made by level 99 R/E/M holders can just as legitimately be made by those that hold lower tier weapons. No-one wants to lose the work they put into their weapons, which in all cases is significant - just to varying degrees. I think denying <lv99 weapon users the ability to restore their weapons to their original level of usefulness is simply unjustifiable. They made their <lv99 weapon knowing what they would get - something good, but not exceptional. SE has taken that away from them, and they have a right to want their weapon restored.

Weapon users with <lv99 weapons wouldn't get anything "free" from this adjustment - at least not anything more than lv99 weapon users will. They will still end up with an inferior weapon. However, they will end up with a weapon that is "as inferior" as they originally intended - which is the only reasonable outcome.

I disagree, the way you say it sounds like lv 85~95 weapons are different from lv 99, but in fact they're not.

The one who made lv 85~95 weapons already know lv 85~95 isn't the end. Even if you make lv 85~90 in Abyssea era, you should already guessed that one day your lv 85 90 weapon would get a new trial.

Further more, killing lv 99 R/E/M means this game no longer has R/E/M. Which is one of the main reason why everyone is against this idea. If delve 30k weapon(which takes 1~2 days to get if you play more than avg player) is better than 99 R/E/M, then there's no reason to make them, thus one of FFXI's coolest concept is dead.

But keeping 85~95 as it is, and boost lv 99 R/E/M means R/E/M are still use-able. The legendary weapon concept still exist.

Players rant about lv 99 R/E/M isn't just about "I do this for nothing, boost it", but also because the emotional attachment, and I think emotional attachment should be lv 99 only. By your logic, if a player lv NIN during abyssea because NIN was useful, shouldn't he ask SE to boost NIN or give every NM NIN proc too, just because he leveled NIN for nothing after Abyssea/VW era ended?

[Jerbob]

I disagree, the way you say it sounds like lv 85~95 weapons are different from lv 99, but in fact they're not.

The one who made lv 85~95 weapons already know lv 85~95 isn't the end. Even if you make lv 85~90 in Abyssea era, you should already guessed that one day your lv 85 90 weapon would get a new trial.

Further more, killing lv 99 R/E/M means this game no longer has R/E/M. Which is one of the main reason why everyone is against this idea. If delve 30k weapon(which takes 1~2 days to get if you play more than avg player) is better than 99 R/E/M, then there's no reason to make them, thus one of FFXI's coolest concept is dead.

But keeping 85~95 as it is, and boost lv 99 R/E/M means R/E/M are still use-able. The legendary weapon concept still exist.

Players rant about lv 99 R/E/M isn't just about "I do this for nothing, boost it", but also because the emotional attachment, and I think emotional attachment should be lv 99 only. By your logic, if a player lv NIN during abyssea because NIN was useful, shouldn't he ask SE to boost NIN or give every NM NIN proc too, just because he leveled NIN for nothing after Abyssea/VW era ended?

I understand what you're saying about emotional attachment, but why should that apply to level 99 weapons only? If someone burns their weapon to level 90 in a couple of days because they have optimal jobs, already have a high-tier weapon, lots of available time and plenty of help etc then I can see how they might not be massively attached to them, but not everyone can/has done that. It took me a long time to build my level 90 Hvergelmir, and I'm attached to it partly for that reason.

Part of the reason that that people want lower level R/E/M upgraded is that there was no warning that this Delve fiasco was going to happen. There have been new legendary weapons released in the past, but they've always been approximately the same tier of effectiveness (generally speaking) to each other. If you had a relic before the mythics or empyreans came out, it's still top-tier afterwards. I think it was reasonable for people to assume that a level 90 Empyrean weapon would stay pretty decent for the forseeable future, and plan on taking it just to that level. It's not the best, but it's decent. Personally, I would not have created an Empyrean weapon if I knew the level 95 HMP trial was mandatory, because I simply don't have the in-game time or resources to complete it unless I slog it out for a year. This is the same issue that level 99 R/E/M holders face - they built their weapon expecting a consistent, indefinitely useful top-tier weapon, and now that's not the case.

Perhaps think of it this way: Empyrean weapons were created during the cap increase, with a definite end-point at level 99. If SE didn't think people might want to stop at some point along the way, why did they bother adding useful stats to any of the non-lv99 weapons? Why didn't they only give you the "complete" weapon when it's actually finished at lv99? Sure, the level cap increase period was fairly long, but if SE intended only the level 99 weapons to be relevant they could easily have announced "Your weird looking weapon will look like this at lv99. Start working now".

Regarding your jobs comment, job balance has been broken since the game's inception, and I think we can all agree that it's even more broken now. Ninja should be a useful job, regardless of when it was levelled or for what reason, or what is the point of having the job at all? I agree with your point - if you level a job, you should be able to be confident that it'll remain useful in the future. We all know that doesn't happen, but we also all agree that it should happen. How it's done is the important part - Ninja shouldn't suddenly become the ultimate job, but should remain just as good at what it does relative to other jobs - just as lower level R/E/M should remain just as good relative to other weapons.

[Afania]

I understand what you're saying about emotional attachment, but why should that apply to level 99 weapons only?

When I said "emotional attachment" I mean emotional attachment to this game/FF title, and irrelevant to the amount of time each individual spent, if I'm going to talk about individual emotional attachment then it will never end, because you can have emotional attachment to Hagun/martial gun or even a copper ring for personal reasons.

For example, "Excalibur" is the ultimate sword in past FF titles, if you have it you have the ultimate sword called Excalibur used by king arthur. If all lv range Excalibur is useless, than it won't be used by anyone and the concept of legendary sword Excalibur would be dead. "Save the queen" is also a legendary sword from past FF series, but most players probably don't know they exist nor care, simply because it's not legendary weapon and sucked bad.

Boosting lv 99 Excalibur and make it relevant, that means the legendary sword Excalibur still exist in this game. Lv 75~lv 95 doesn't need a boost, as long as lv 99 stat is good then this sword still exist. If SE doesn't boost lv 99 then it'd be like Save the Queen, that nobody gives a shit. And FFXI would be a boring game if all weapons have no special WS and looked boring, with little to no back story.

If you want to complain about gap between lv 85 and lv 99 is too big, look at relic weapons from 1st stage to final stage.