95 And Below RME Weapons

[Jerbob]

Please read my post fully before criticising it.

I mentioned and recognised (twice) that people would have to perform some sort of (as of yet unknown) trial to upgrade their weapons. I am fully aware that it's not just "free extra damage" or similar.

I never stated that I thought that the R/E/M holders' requests to bring their weapons up to "delve potency" were wrong - I do, in fact, agree with said requests and respect the effort people put into these weapons. I merely compared such requests to those made by incomplete weapon holders, who also don't wish for their weapon to become completely worthless. Had I requested that all R/E/M (regardless of level) be automatically upgraded to the same level, my logic would have been flawed. A broad upgrade to all levels of weapons resulting in a proportional increase in potency is, however, simply a reflection of the status quo - incomplete weapons are currently useful tools that are similar to, but do not rival, complete weapons. This would not change. Relative potency would remain as it is now.

Simply put, your weapon would remain better - as befits the extra effort you put into it. Incomplete weapons would remain just as inferior to yours as they are now. But they would still be usable, as befits the effort their owners put into making them. Whether that amount of effort is different to yours is immaterial, so long as the final potency of the item is relative.

[Babekeke]

Asking for 75-95 weapons to be boosted is double-lazy. Too lazy to complete the original trials, too lazy to get new weapons from SoA.

Spoken like a true close-minded idiot. Most people who made a level 90 empy or 95 relic but didn't take it further, have not done so because they simply don't have the time to invest into such a thing.

I'll get flamed for bringing this up, but the fact is it's true, plain and simple: People who have full-time jobs and families or friends that they like to spend time on can have significantly less time to put into upgrading their weapons. Sure, you'll come back with "if you don't have the time, then don't play an MMORPG" whilst completely failing to realise that many people are very happy with playing just a couple of days a week, or only a couple of hours a day.

Good for all those that don't work, don't socialise, or maybe just don't sleep. You can invest enough time to do salvage, dynamis and limbus every day, and spend the rest of your time farming plasm to make gil and complete a 99 empy or relic in a couple of weeks. Other people are content to be second best whilst still participate in events with friends that don't care if it takes a little longer to do than the most elite groups

Your logic is horribly flawed. First off, 99REM holders will have to do some trial(s) to upgrade their 99s damage, they aren't just being handed a crapton of damage. 95 and below is an INCOMPLETE WEAPON. Finish your goddamned weapon then complain about it being bad. You don't build a bike without a chain then complain that bikes suck because yours doesn't go as fast as someone that put a f*cking chain on theirs.

See above.

Why shouldn't you have to do what I, and thousands of others, have done several times to be competitive with me/us?

You obviously didn't read what he said:

When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a continuum of weapon power - in my case, close to (but not at) the top.

He's not asking to be competitive with you/them (unless you/them gear/play much worse than him), he's just asking to be closer, relative to the amount of work that he and others have put in.

It may be that the people with level 90 empys/95 relics are working towards making the 99 versions, but with the amount of time that they can put into doing so, it will take many months to reach 99. This means for them that their weapon that was 'acceptable' for most end-game content has all-of-a-sudden become (in some cases) out-classed by AH weapons, and completely outclassed by all of the new r/e weapons.

I can see it from both sides of the coin, but I think that enabling non-99 weapons to be upgraded would be shooting themselves in the foot, as if people can get a better weapon without doing the plates/rift/marrows, then they will - so noone will bother farming the items and the price will shoot right up, making people even less likely to want to upgrade.

[Riggs]

We're in vertical progression mode. If we want to drag our RMEs with us from now until the end of time, RMEs are going to require an update every time SE releases the next step up. If we do that, half of SE's development budget is going to be invested into making sure RMEs stay astride the new gear. We complain that updates lack compelling new content, and then we demand that they spend their resources on making sure nothing changes in the game. Doomcriers write their own self-fulfilling prophecy.

your damn right we want our RME's to stay the best weapons, and we want more, reduce the cost to upgrade from 95 to 99 as and trial to increase the level of 99's is just not worth the 95 to 99 expense unless they are boosted to be the best weapons again

[Demon6324236]

If we want to drag our RMEs with us from now until the end of time, RMEs are going to require an update every time SE releases the next step up.

From the time 99 was released till Adoulin was released the RME99s were the top of the food chain, many pieces of content were added in that time, all of it required no change to RME99s, only when Adoulin was added and surpassed them not by a small bit but almost double their DMG did it become any sort of problem. I assure you if I went through all of school with great grades, attended collage, and got a job making half of the money someone who dropped out of High School was making, I would be fairly pissed, and that is basically what not changing the weapons would have been like, someone put a ton of time and effort into their work only to get stuck with half of the reward someone else was going to get from doing not anywhere near the same amount of work, and even if you could obtain the same, its still throwing out all of that work you did previously.

Its not really right to say that they have to update RME99s every time a new update is out, simply do not add weapons with double the damage of everything else in the entire game and things will be fine, once stupid things like that are done there will always, always, always be problems...

[Yinnyth]

If you follow the logic of "The power of a weapon should reflect the amount of effort it requires to obtain said weapon" and you wish to create vertical progression, you have 4 primary options:

1. Abandon the old return on investment curve, wipe the slate clean and start again (what they're attempting to do).

2. Make new weapons abide by the current return on investment curve so delve weapons require billions of plasm before they're stronger than 99 RMEs.

3. Drag RMEs along for the ride and give the RMEs an update every time the next level of gear is released.

4. Revise the old return on investment curve so 99 RMEs are significantly easier to obtain.


Option 3 seems to be what most RME holders (even the level 80 RME holders now, seemingly) are asking for. But forcing the dev team to keep this anchor tied around them will slow down all other content from being released and keep the game from changing much at all.

Now this is all assuming that we're sold on vertical progression at all, which appears to be what most people are actually taking issue with.

[Demon6324236]

3. Drag RMEs along for the ride and give the RMEs an update every time the next level of gear is released.

Option 3 seems to be what most RME holders (even the level 80 RME holders now, seemingly) are asking for. But forcing the dev team to keep this anchor tied around them will slow down all other content from being released and keep the game from changing much at all.

Really? I just explained, we had a long time period where RME99s were fine, it was only when they decided it was a good idea to double the DMG on weapons that a problem was created. You say they have to updated them every time a new level of gear is released, its not quite accurate, its when new levels of weapons are released, and only when they are so vastly superior to what we currently have, that it becomes a problem. Skirmish weapons had a few out matching Relics, not all, but some with +2 stones were doing the job, were people in an uproar then? Not really, some complained, but it was only a few here and there by compare, the weapons were ok. Delve made the Skirmish update look like nothing, the gap between weapons expanded exponentially and there was of course an uproar because everything in the game including the Skirmish gear was instantly outclassed, not by a bit, or by an acceptable amount, but rather by large amount that is so large it completely crushes any other options. Skirmish weapons were ok even with their higher DMG because RMEs have more than simply DMG going for them, more than that which makes them special, but Delve weapons can disregard that as well because their DMG is that overwhelming.

You make it sound as though updating the RME99s is going to be a constant chore that happens with every other update, that could be true, if they make weapons jump in power again and again each update. If they do that, I doubt people will continue to play this game, it would be the stupidest choice they could make right now, so I doubt they would do that, instead they will improve gear, we will get new weapons with the other Delve areas as they are released as well as the other Fractures, WK Reives, and so on. The update is probably the last one or second to last one that RMEs will ever see, which is good, they should stay where they are after this next update, but only so long as SE does not choose to throw balance out the window and go crazy with numbers once again.

[Return1]

A large majority hate vertical progression because it goes against why we like FFXI. If we wanted vertical progression on this scale we would be playing WOW. If we wanted the slate wiped clean every couple months, we'd play a Diablo ladder.

Also vertical progression like this KILLS all the old content. You really think that it's a good idea to obsolete thousands of hours of content so you can participate in the few hours/weeks worth of content they release each patch? It's stupid.

Extending REM life adds more viable content to do than just Delve.

And it really shouldn't take much more than one guy in a basement to upgrade the REMs. Add some ACC/ATK, and bring the base DMG up to par, congratulations you've f*cking succeeded.

He's not asking to be competitive with you/them (unless you/them gear/play much worse than him), he's just asking to be closer, relative to the amount of work that he and others have put in.

You want gear relative to the amount of work? You already have it. A 95Relic or 85-90 Empyrean weapon is literally less than or equal to half the work of 99'ing it.

Half the work, half the weapon. It's pretty fitting.

[Chimerawizard]

Equipment strength is dependent on the level of the content you need to challenge in order to obtain the equipment, not the level in which it can be equipped. With the gear that is released in Adoulin from here on out, they can be equipped at level 99; however, instead of considering these to be level 99 pieces of equipment, it would be better for you to think of their level in terms of the content level (for example, level 110 or level 120).

So, could we just assume that the boost added to RME is based on it being made for content level 120?
And that a lvl 75 RME was made for level 75 content?
and that a lvl 90/95 RME was designed for level 90/95 content?

Still have issues, keep crying.

It's not like they downgraded the weapons, they just made new ones that outclassed the old ones. They did this before with abyssea adding weapons that totally outclassed what was then the best of the best, Relic weapons. Trials were added at the same time (forethought) to RM to make sure they would always be relevent and at the top tier of weapons, and easily obtainable weapons would outclass a 'base' lv75 finished RM.

[Babekeke]

You want gear relative to the amount of work? You already have it. A 95Relic or 85-90 Empyrean weapon is literally less than or equal to half the work of 99'ing it.

Half the work, half the weapon. It's pretty fitting.

Farming the NMs to get to level 90 empy is about 99% of the time it takes to get your weapon to 99 if you can afford to buy all your plates and rift. I'm not saying they should be 99% of the weapon, but if a level 85 empy was given an extra 10% damage, level 90 20%, 95 30% and 99 40% to their current values, I think everyone would be happy.

Let's take Caladbolg as an example:

85= 112 > 123
90= 120 > 142
95= 132 > 171
99= 142 > 198

Compared to Bereaver= 209 dmg

As you'll see, in this proposition, level 90 would become the equivalent of what level 99 currently is; and that's in no way ground-breaking, or people wouldn't be complaining that their 99s are already no good.

[Demon6324236]

You want gear relative to the amount of work? You already have it. A 95Relic or 85-90 Empyrean weapon is literally less than or equal to half the work of 99'ing it.

For Emps I may agree, for Relics, not even close... Half the work? Lets go by old standard prices, meaning pre-Adoulin, AC was at around 7k average on Phoenix, now each Relic needs about 18k AC to complete it. With that math a Relic was nearly 125 Million gil, on the other hand look at Marrows, they were at roughly 15 Mil each, so 5 of them would be a total of around 75 Million gil. So really by making a Relic you are doing almost 2/3rds of the work, now when you factor in the WS kill trials which take hours to do and are painfully slow, I am sure we can all agree that getting a 95 Relic is at very least 2/3rds of the work. So 2/3rds of the work deserve 2/3rds of the power right? Seems to me that means they would need at least some form of boost top get that high.