Empyrean 90-95 trials

[Mephie]

Greetings. I figured with the R/E/M weapons being upgraded after the whole delve weapon fiasco, I’d write this post since you’re working on R/E/M weapons at the moment anyways. I’m not sure if there already a forum for this - if there is, please move it there.

Now I know a lot of you are going to say this post is just an empy holder complaining about their trial but it’s not. I will be using raw stats taken from the 2012 Vana’diel census to show the vast disparity between the 90-95 empy trial and the relic and mythic 90-95 trials.

For starters I had my friend do all the calculations as he does not have any R/E/M so there would be no internal bias skewing the calculations. I do not expect you to blindly believe these calculations though, rather I would encourage you to look at the numbers yourself from the census and calculate it out to see what you come up with. I will list all the numbers for these calculations below but for 90-5 trial the percentage of weapons at or above 95 for each weapon is: relic 94%; mythic 87%; empyrean 0.83%. While the relic and mythic hit a roadblock at 95-99, the empyrean hit it a stage early. I do not know if this was intentional. If it was, I think the player base would like to know the reasoning behind such an arduous trial; if it wasn’t, we ask while making the various changes to R/E/M to fix it as the numbers show a great imbalance in the trials. This is very important as the fixes are only slated to apply to level 99 weapons. The numbers below show percentage of original weapons at or above that stage.

Relic:

16568 at 4th stage or better [100%]

15582 at 5th stage or better [94%]

14951 at 80+ [88%]

14287 at 85+ [86%]

13707 at 90+ [83%]

12897 at 95+ [78%]

1960 at 99+ [12%] *1

Mythic:

578 unlocked or better [100%]

557 at 80+ [96%]

555 at 85+ [96%]

535 at 90+ [93%]

505 at 95+ [87%]

329 at 99+ [57%]

Empyrean:

72840 at 80+ [100%]

65682 at 85+ [93%]

26976 at 90+ [38%] *2

593 at 95+ [0.83%] *3

550 at 99+ [0.78%]

*1: The low numbers may be the result of the relative newness of the Arch Dynamis Lord at that point in time.

*2: This is possibly due to people stopping when they had unlocked the weaponskill.

*3: This is where Heavy Metal Plates come into play.

[Kincard]

I'm not quite understanding what you're asking for. If the changes are only going to apply to level 99 weapons, why does it matter that the difficult trial occurs at 90->95 instead of 95->99? Either way you're going to have to go through the hardest trial in order to get the weapon that matters.

At best you can ask for them to shift the Rift and HMP trials around so that the difficulty "ramp" makes more logical sense (all the while pissing off people who currently have 95 weapons), but I don't really see the point of that.

[Mephie]

I'm showing the difference in difficulty between empy weapons and the others at 95. The fact that the damage upgrade only helps the 99 weapons means that only the very few who manage to get past the hmp trial and the more reasonable rift trial receive the boon of that change. I'd love to know why the trial is how it is actually i mean is it a typo or were hmp's supposed to be a way more common drop or something? you gotta admit the progression is weird 50>50>75>1500>60>3000???? 99II is supposed to be the hard to obtain part not 95 <.< but personally i mostly wanted to show the actual data off, because to my knowledge no one has posted the raw stats between them outside of the census.

[Kincard]

If you're talking just overall, Empyreans had harder trials towards the end because they're much easier to complete the base weapon form for. At the end the cost of relics and empyreans are about the same. If there's any weapon that you would talk about being out of balance in overall cost its Mythics (30,000 is only 20x more than 1500 after all).

And yes, HMP are far more common of a drop than Rift items, and they drop from more VWNMs than the Riftitems do. It's still harder to complete the HMP trial, though. But like I said, there is a reason that the Empyreans have harder trials - the base weapons are easier to complete.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if the 95 trial or the 99 trial is harder, because you'll have to do them both anyway. I'm asking again what you're trying to show other than something that is easily accessible on any community site.

[xiozen]

If you're talking just overall, Empyreans had harder trials towards the end because they're much easier to complete the base weapon form for. At the end the cost of relics and empyreans are about the same. If there's any weapon that you would talk about being out of balance in overall cost its Mythics (30,000 is only 20x more than 1500 after all).

Absolutely. In addition, the balancing act between acquisition and completion of R/E/M's were addressed in previous posts (long time ago) by the development team themselves, rationalizing why the trials were set-up the way they were set-up. I have absolutely no complaints when it came to that because it made sense. Adjusting these trials now, would throw a perennial wretch in the process that may be impossible to overcome later.

And yes, HMP are far more common of a drop than Rift items, and they drop from more VWNMs than the Riftitems do. It's still harder to complete the HMP trial, though. But like I said, there is a reason that the Empyreans have harder trials - the base weapons are easier to complete. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if the 95 trial or the 99 trial is harder, because you'll have to do them both anyway. I'm asking again what you're trying to show other than something that is easily accessible on any community site.

QFT...

My opinion, this entire OP is irrelevant... the OP appears to be attempting to justify adjusting or changing trials prior to getting an R/E/M to 99... As someone who spammed (and I mean spammed) Void watch day after day for hours on end, over a very long period of time, then spammed Provenance and its prerequisite battlefields for drops that costs millions, then spammed Dynamis for currency to sell, only to rinse and repeat this process over and over again to gain the gil and items necessary to accomplish each trial towards 99... I do not believe adjusting the trials is justified...

1) Items have been introduced to weaken all Void watch NMs... many folks worked their trials without these weakening items...so the introduction of these items makes doing void watch a cakewalk (regardless of the drop rate).
2) Same weakening items can be used in Provenance battlefields.
3) Dynamis is still Dynamis...which means, folks can stop being "lazy" and spam for currency (there are still those out there that wanna buy currency towards upgrading their relic)
4) There's Neo/Salvage for alexandrite... sell-able currency for those working on a mythic.
5) With the introduction of Delve, plasma items are a big selling item now, (more ways to fund upgrade items towards R/E/M) weapons if you so choose.

Sorry but in my opinion adjusting the trials is absolutely unnecessary. This is an MMO, if you want to work on a trial and the item/s you need drop from an event, then ORGANIZE an event... I'm sure there's more than (1) one person on your server that may be interested in participating in said event--you may even get lucky enough to find folks willing to form a static.

We need the development team to remain focused on balancing the R/E/M's with Delve weapons now that a new "End game" line of weapons have been introduced.

I'm all for adding another "line of ultimate weapons" and if the Delve weapons are those weapons, then so be it... but its time to BALANCE out the R/E/Ms to keep them relevant to the new content--undoing years of previously released content will sink this game faster than its already sinking...

The SE Development team has always been big on providing the player with a CHOICE (as per numerous posts made where choice was always a factor of consideration...) whether they were weapons, armor, abilities or spells... there has always been a choice. This should be no exception. As a Puppetmaster, I CHOOSE my Level 99 Verethragna as my H2H weapon of choice for end game content--since that was the original intention of obtaining a Level 99 Verethragna. If I choose to use a different END GAME weapon, that should also be my choice, as well as the means in which to acquire that weapon etc.

As far as future upgrades, we honestly do not have to always come back to the table about the ultimate weapons (R/E/M and D) if future upgrades take this into account prior to content release and ensure that these weapons stay balanced--especially now that the player base has spoken.

[Vold]

For the record, total Empy count, not counting SE's insistence to include WoE weapons for some reason, including Ochain and Harp and not their useless base forms, is 75,932 as of a year ago, 2012 census. It's probably just over 100,000 by now. Again I thank SE in advance this year when they make me do this all over again instead of adding a Total count at the end of empy census.

I'm asking again what you're trying to show other than something that is easily accessible on any community site.

Possibly that the lv95 empy trials are crap? Doesn't matter much why they are crap, just that they're crap, everyone knows it, and 0.83%ish of players have bothered to complete it. Mind you, over 16,000 relics exist and those aren't cheap. The question here is, why do people stop spending money when faced with a 95 empy trial? Probably for the same reason people stop spending money on their relics when it comes time for 99. It's fricking expensive!

I should probably see this years census before I start blabbering off here, but let's pretend it's still 2012. SE's idea that the 99 relic trial was designed for "many" or "most" or whatever wording they used. They actually envisioned that the majority of relic owners would upgrade their relics to 99 with ADL standing in the way. So it's pretty obvious why relic numbers are down when it comes to 99. That's okay because those players have already spent fortunes getting a relic period. No one can blame them for saying no to the 99 relic trial.

Now back to emps, why do people stop spending money on an ultimate/etc/etc type of weapon when it comes to those 1500 metal plates for emps? They hadn't spent a dime before that moment unless they paid someone to farm it for them. They are more pricey than relics by time you reach 99. It's possible that gil doesn't grow on trees for people as much as some people would like to believe. It's possible everyone who paid up for relics ran out of money for emps. Some also looked at the costs of taking these weapons to 99 and chose relic because 1)it cost less than emps 2)specific weapon was better than emp counterpart, like I did. Perhaps in the grand scheme of things, most people who own emps are casual players. They may play a lot, they may even take offense of being called casual, but they don't play hard enough to have hundreds of millions of gil or to spam end game content over and over to farm 1500 plates.

Perhaps these numbers show the difference between once wealthy players, current wealthy players who maintain their wealth and didn't spend it all on a 75 relic, and not so wealthy players. You've got the 90- emp crowd who has never upgraded to 95+. You've got the 95- relic crowd who never upgraded to 99. And you've got the 99 relic/95+ emp/entire mythic crowd who have spent a ton of gil. What this tells me is that to date there is still a very small percentage of players who can claim to be wealthy enough to afford things.

Overall, does this explain why 1% have taken the 1500 plate and beyond dive for their emp weapons? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe those that would have done it, decided that the 99 relic was better or significantly cheaper anyways, and on top of that they also may have mythic dreams and are spending a fortune on those. I don't feel 1500 metal plates are 100% stopping us from completing the 95 trial. It's the fact that the alternative weapon choices are on par or better on the way to 99, and cheaper. Perhaps that's enough to lower the plate count down to 1000 or even 500, but you can bet that in the end you still won't get 99 because people will just raise prices on the final item needed to make up for it as demand increases. People will still do the math and relics will still be their best option.



So, the short short answer is, 1% of people own a 95+ empy because most people can't see spending a fortune on minor upgrades to 99 when most of the awesome came for free up to 90. Relics and mythics on the other hand, you must spend a fortune to obtain them at all. And given the choice, you're gonna take relics to 99 long before you'll take emps to 95+. What does that mean for emps not at 99 for inc RME99 upgrades to match delve? Well, I guess it means those weapons are doomed, or you have a new found reason to spend money to get RMEs to 99 so they stay relevant with upgrades to match delve weaps. A 90 ukon will no longer be "good enough" For those that don't spend money, delve and WS unlocks is your answer. That is why they exist, I feel. So you replace your sub 99 emp with delve weapons. Look at it this way: At least you don't have to farm fricking 175 drops from high end NMs that may or may not be low man friendly, having to go out and constantly farm cruor so you can brew your way to emps. Granted, it's a pretty big mess right now with the whole SoA business, but find a way through it and obtaining new delve weapons will be well worth it.

You know, adjustments for at least emps may be justified simply because they are a lost cause, currently. Delve weaps have changed everything. You can no longer look at emps and say, their 95-99 trials are justified, because delve weapons are right there next to them saying hi. Do we view delve weapons as free weapons? Or do we accept that they can be very pricey like RMEs and the term becomes 'RMEDs'? Maybe pricey right now but maybe not later. I'm not sure. But if delve weapons become the standard and everyone owns one, I see no reason not to severely cut the requirements for emp trials. Maybe it won't be fair to relics and mythics, but delve already crossed that line, and they are much easier to get to 99 than emps due to cost. 95 relic vs 90 emp. Will I spend 60 mil on relic or like hundreds of millions on emp? Mandau vs twashtar. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Tough choice.


Say what you want but face it, emps are dead in the water now. At least with mythics there's a reason to still go through with them. I can't think of a single reason to bother with emps beyond lv90 or ochain. shrug

[Kincard]

The idea that the 90->99 trials for Empy are disproportionate to the reward is going to be totally void when they update RME99s and thus make it worthwhile to 99 any one of those three weapons (well, maybe not Claustrum). Did people just miss out on the fact that they're planning on making RMEs competitive/stronger than Delve weapons again? Besides, the OP was complaining about the 95 trial being harder than 99. Are we seriously still complaining about the RME trials being "too hard" when they just introduced an alternative weapon that's going to be competitive with the renewed RMEs that takes like an afternoon to get?

If you don't want to upgrade your 90 Emp because it's "too hard", you can always just go get a Delve weapon.

[Mephie]

Possibly that the lv95 empy trials are crap? Doesn't matter much why they are crap, just that they're crap, everyone knows it, and 0.83%ish of players have bothered to complete it. Mind you, over 16,000 relics exist and those aren't cheap. The question here is, why do people stop spending money when faced with a 95 empy trial? Probably for the same reason people stop spending money on their relics when it comes time for 99. It's fricking expensive!

I should probably see this years census before I start blabbering off here, but let's pretend it's still 2012. SE's idea that the 99 relic trial was designed for "many" or "most" or whatever wording they used. They actually envisioned that the majority of relic owners would upgrade their relics to 99 with ADL standing in the way. So it's pretty obvious why relic numbers are down when it comes to 99. That's okay because those players have already spent fortunes getting a relic period. No one can blame them for saying no to the 99 relic trial.

Now back to emps, why do people stop spending money on an ultimate/etc/etc type of weapon when it comes to those 1500 metal plates for emps? They hadn't spent a dime before that moment unless they paid someone to farm it for them. They are more pricey than relics by time you reach 99. It's possible that gil doesn't grow on trees for people as much as some people would like to believe. It's possible everyone who paid up for relics ran out of money for emps. Some also looked at the costs of taking these weapons to 99 and chose relic because 1)it cost less than emps 2)specific weapon was better than emp counterpart, like I did. Perhaps in the grand scheme of things, most people who own emps are casual players. They may play a lot, they may even take offense of being called casual, but they don't play hard enough to have hundreds of millions of gil or to spam end game content over and over to farm 1500 plates.

Perhaps these numbers show the difference between once wealthy players, current wealthy players who maintain their wealth and didn't spend it all on a 75 relic, and not so wealthy players. You've got the 90- emp crowd who has never upgraded to 95+. You've got the 95- relic crowd who never upgraded to 99. And you've got the 99 relic/95+ emp/entire mythic crowd who have spent a ton of gil. What this tells me is that to date there is still a very small percentage of players who can claim to be wealthy enough to afford things.

Overall, does this explain why 1% have taken the 1500 plate and beyond dive for their emp weapons? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe those that would have done it, decided that the 99 relic was better or significantly cheaper anyways, and on top of that they also may have mythic dreams and are spending a fortune on those. I don't feel 1500 metal plates are 100% stopping us from completing the 95 trial. It's the fact that the alternative weapon choices are on par or better on the way to 99, and cheaper. Perhaps that's enough to lower the plate count down to 1000 or even 500, but you can bet that in the end you still won't get 99 because people will just raise prices on the final item needed to make up for it as demand increases. People will still do the math and relics will still be their best option. [/HB]

It really wouldn't be so bad if the drop rates on hmps weren't so bad and if the pouched which are way less frequent than the singles dropped alot more plates ><;

[Werewolf]

It would be nice if they either lowered the required plates (since 1,500 was always a bit off, considering the trials went 50>50>75>1,500>60?!) or just make Heavy Metal Plates available from other events, similar to what they did with Alexandrites; or both...

[xiozen]

It would be nice if they either lowered the required plates (since 1,500 was always a bit off, considering the trials went 50>50>75>1,500>60?!) or just make Heavy Metal Plates available from other events, similar to what they did with Alexandrites; or both...

Honestly, why?

I personally don't think 1500 is way off, considering the history... HMP's are available from 7 different void watch NMs and HMP pouches are available from 3 different void watch NMs... so that's 10 different NMs you can farm for Heavy Metal Plates... why do you need them from other events...is beyond me... I can understand if they were only dropped from one or two different NMs, or even three... but 10 (ten)....???

Maybe I'm just out of touch.