Trials of the Magians and casual players.

[Sarick]

Compromise is part of the game >_>

TL: DR - Without compromise you will never get anywhere, not only in this game but with many things in rl also.
/rant

First off This isn't real life.

Second this is a game that we're supposed to play for fun.

Read This.

Note the bottom of the page. Do you see what fans think? Sorry, this is where the real life compromise is needed. You tell people to compromise on a subscription service that they pay to play. It's the very bread and butter that fills the coffers of the industry. It's common sense if people are unsatisfied most of them go elsewhere without saying anything. It's only the hardcore that stick around to say "WE WANT MORE" the other potential half is lost because it was thrown curve balls.

Since this forum is closed to the public, you only see responses from PAYING customers. Look on other forums or twitter where people openly chat about stocks, other online games and development directions. Open up to how poor development choices ruin markets. Look at the 1980s when Atari was almost completely ruined in the gaming market. I'm sure if you saw the whole picture you'd have a change of tune once you looked around bit.

I'm also sick of people making excuses that all the markets are hurting. This is TRUE however, the companies who do well in a sick market are the ones who listen to their customers/fans. They don't make them COMPROMISE (jump through hoops) because poor design quality or bad implementation on their ends. If you sell garbage you don't stay in business long. If you only sell to a nitch market and fail to expand your core base you also fail eventually. The biggest thing not to do is stop doing what works!

For instance. Old content like COP rings or sky earrings could've killed 2 birds in one stone by allowing players the option to REDO some fights as level capped for an upgraded version. This would've reinvigorated several game elements. As for the trial weapons they could've allowed players to merge 2 of the same weapons for the enhanced versions or something. This is just a few examples of how old content like trials could've be done.

I only see fodder content being added to keep hardcore players interested, because they sure as Flipping don't give a poo about the casuals leaving. Split the difference update older content. You not only make/keep people interested in new content but also invite new membership and interest for old content. Everyone is happy and interested instead of the situation we're in now that requires compromise and frustration. If people where all about fodder or bulk everyone would be eating low quality dog food because its easy to make and cheaper to eat.

If I could I'd give the OP thumbs up on all my accounts/alts. Because they're linked to the same SE account I can only click once.

OFF TOPIC

One good thing to note, the rating for SE's customer service and support went up slightly so something happened in that department. My guess is with all the cut backs there was a wake up call. Unlike the entertainment on the game when jobs are on the line developers and staff shouldn't be optimistic. They should be serious by taking the appropriate actions to survive.

[hiko]

I've realized where the disconnect is, you want to play the game in a way it isn't intended to be played and still feel satisfied at the end of the day. There's really no arguing with that mentality so I'm done.

disagree, there is no intended way to play a game.
there is intended way to get game achievment (here get delve gear) but nobody force you to get it.
Ive played casualy, got up to jeuno TII VW and never done it agin, did one NIUR, no salvageII and never got a GM or game producer tell me :
"you're not playing the game in the intended way, you have to do all those event"

A casual player is someone who plays in their spare time, does their missions and other tasks, makes friends, and plays the job they like with who they like. Someone who expects to get something done in the timeframe their life allows at their own pace.

agree, as long as you don't expect to get the latest gears in the first month after it's release.
It's just like someone get a "basic" job and expect to be able to buy a Laferrari after 1month

People who just don't feel like farming millions of gil or have bad luck want an alternative weapon option that scales better with the new content. Trials of the Magians is the perfect route for this. R/M/E and Delve weapons will still have their throne, so to speak, so no one has their toes stepped on, and everyone gets to enjoy playing the game.

skirmish is what you're looking for

When I take a look back and think about how the content level steps up as you continue to move through more challenging content, I feel that there isn't a smooth transition.

In particular, we want to adjust the difficulty for small groups participating in lair and colonization reives and the difficulty associated with accessing Skirmish.

/..../

Also, one part of smoothing out the content level will be adjusted in a maintenance to be carried out of the end of this week: we will be adding a fixed probability to obtain the items needed to enter Skirmishes (Simulacrum Segments) from Lair and Colonization Reives. (This adjustment is unrelated to the current rules associated with coalition assignments, gathering, and Soul Pyres.)

Okay so it looks like we are in agreement to a degree when it comes to the progress, now here's how I see it:

1) Abyssea Cruor Gear, TotM Elemental/WS paths, and 75 content gear (sky/sea/af/relic/etc.)
2) Emp armor/weapons
3) VW armor and weapons (I guess imo weapons are too situational)
4) Neo Salvage/Limbus
5) Bayld Peacekeeper gear
6) Neo Nyzul
7) SoA Craftables
8) Wildskeeper armor/weapons
9) Delve Plasm armor/weapons
10) Delve Boss armor/weapons

you forgot skirmishes weapon, wich are a big step up over pre adoulin weapon

[Umichi]

I shouldn't have to compromise, this game was created so all jobs work with each other and can accomplish tasks with a basic pty set-up, yet time and again SE has set-up gimmicks that make people pick and choose what jobs they have to come as in order to accomplish tasks..

this is about being who you want to be not what other people want you to be because "That's how we want it" or "That's how it works"

Sure can't live life without compromise, but if you don't stand up for things and refuse to compromise then the mentality stays there still in the community and if you compromise all the time you also conform. I refuse to conform.

[Zagen]

disagree, there is no intended way to play a game.
there is intended way to get game achievment (here get delve gear) but nobody force you to get it.
Ive played casualy, got up to jeuno TII VW and never done it agin, did one NIUR, no salvageII and never got a GM or game producer tell me :
"you're not playing the game in the intended way, you have to do all those event"

Just because you don't have to follow the intended design doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It should be obvious there's an intended way to play any game.

Edit: I forgot they actually created a table as reference for the intended progression:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post432132

Figures they'd use HTML for the table instead of BB code so we could actually quote it...

[Zeldar]

My issue is more poor elemental staves Hell, I sacrifice 8 inventory slots to have these weapons, and now you can get a better blm staff from delve, even skirmish! Oh well, i guess I'll gain a few more inventory slots

[Sarick]

It should be obvious there's an intended way to play any game.

Its also obvious that your explanation for everything is to play what you consider the intended way. The topic ask for alternate paths that worked in the past. There is clearly a lot of support for the original post. I don't see why you object to this so much. It's not like it'll interfere with your opinion of whats the intended way to play the game.

If TotM remain relevant until the end of FFXI what's the point in designing any other weapons?

Because it was a system everyone had/has access to and it worked very well.

this is about being who you want to be not what other people want you to be because "That's how we want it" or "That's how it works"

Kudos.. Umichi

[Zagen]

Its also obvious that your explanation for everything is to play what you consider the intended way. The topic ask for alternate paths that worked in the past. There is clearly a lot of support for the original post. I don't see why you object to this so much. It's not like it'll interfere with your opinion of whats the intended way to play the game.

How is it to play my way? I explained several alternatives on ways to get things done based on SE's idea of progression, you might want to reread everything I've said as I don't think I ever said anything to the effect of "do it this way or you're doing it wrong".

I object to the idea because the logic in extending the TotM to benefit "casual" players as you and others call them when it doesn't actually benefit them is terrible at best. Thus far those using "casual" as a definition have done so to define a player who is still catching up on content and/or has limited play times. How does a system that requires set times when it can be done actually benefit that type of player?

I mentioned in one of my posts that maybe people who're for this idea expect SE to be lazy about it and just do something like _ites x40 for the next step. At that point sure it would benefit players who're behind or don't have much play time and maybe that's the disconnect. People here who are in favor of TotM seem to like the whole system which goes beyond collecting X items and calling it a day. If you're expecting or wanting it to just be something lame like that then why not be up front and say that?

Edit:

Because it was a system everyone had/has access to and it worked very well.

Yeah it sure is, I mean it only took me 4 months to finish my STR path sword and I have a fairly large window where I can squeeze in a few hours to play most days.

[Hawklaser]

Really, the biggest reason why I support an expansion of the Trail of the Magians system, is because it lets a more casual player set goals they can more realistically achieve in regards to weapons for the most part, and most of the weapons don't require a lot of outside assistance to work towards. Most of the ones that need outside help are the full Emp, or the multi attack ones.

My earlier posts were more for showing that there are very limited options for someone that is not currently geared that are very interesting if one is not able to get help easily. Which is why some expansion to the system would be beneficial, doesn't need to be much higher than they are currently though.

[Sarick]

How is it to play my way? I explained several alternatives on ways to get things done based on SE's idea of progression, you might want to reread everything I've said as I don't think I ever said anything to the effect of "do it this way or you're doing it wrong".

REREAD?

Please pay close attention to the quotes below while you parse through them.

It really just takes some research, planning, and getting people together to get the new content done it isn't actually that hard. Everyday it gets less hard as those hardcore players figure out how exactly the new gimmicks work and they aren't even jerks about it they make their knowledge free for all to read.

The game is broken because people who don't want to conform to the player established "cookie cutter" setups are too damn lazy to lead so they avoid conformity and increase diversity.

Just because you don't have to follow the intended design doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It should be obvious there's an intended way to play any game.

I've realized where the disconnect is, you want to play the game in a way it isn't intended to be played and still feel satisfied at the end of the day. There's really no arguing with that mentality so I'm done.

Advice or what? You said everything quoted above just click the little blue icons beside your name in the quotes they links to the exact post where the quotes where taken from. You can see I did reread everything. I know exactly what your disposition is.

It looks like your saying we need to conform to established setups. NO, That can't be right it's not telling people they're playing wrong because there is an established way to play.

I object to the idea because the logic in extending the TotM to benefit "casual" players as you and others call them when it doesn't actually benefit them is terrible at best. Thus far those using "casual" as a definition have done so to define a player who is still catching up on content and/or has limited play times. How does a system that requires set times when it can be done actually benefit that type of player?

Let's do a reversal here and see how well you comply with the intended way. Like you said when was the last time you heard someone shouting for help finishing to finish an elemental staff trial? This is what makes it casual. Outside farming gil for crafted SoA gear other content like trials isn't relevant anymore. Only newer content is worth investing time in.

It isn't only trials but the b-line direction things are going. It's also not about living in the past its about keeping ALL content relevant in some fashion or another. I say again WHAT ELSE IS THERE? A new expansion and suddenly everything else is a {big wet stinker noise}.

This game isn't intended to be played 80 hours a week to achieve a goal. The players that play this way blowing through content are DOING IT WRONG! They need to slow down because it's obvious SE can't keep up. They need to conform to a more casual way or find another game. They also need to finish all older content first before asking for new content.

The game isn't intended for players that have real life activities outside of the game. When we log on the game every time there is even a MESSAGE left by the developers for everyone. This specifically tells players not to neglect real life for the game.

Before I go on you see what I did? This comment made by me was an opposite attitude of what you promote attempting to say conform to how casuals play. You want players to conform to a more brisk competitive style and associate this as the successful development path. You also clearly think the game doesn't need these alternatives. Haven't you been reading? Most of these trials players can do without any outside assistance on their own time without pickup groups or asking/shouting/joining pickup help.

The development paths you promote are also PURELY based on new content from the expansion. You don't support development to make growth in older content. That in itself supports tunnel vision design/game play. The trials where very good at letting players build weapons they wanted when they had time. When trial weapons where relevant all content was used to complete them. This spreading out the completion of goals across all zones and expansions. These where still useful even with RME weapons being superior.

Mark my words if players could convert those trial weapons to babbles/gems to augment other gear with their stats the trial system would compete with the seekers content like the XBOX 360 and PS3 duked it out this gen.

Re-balenced/updated trials would make ALL content relevant in multiple fronts unlike the paths that are chucked up from the new expansion. Look at it this way. When abbysea came the trials where relevant compatible across the board weapons. When new levels caps where introduced the trails followed suit! Now they're like level 50 gear compared to LVL 99 gear with a lot of waste.

Since the direction of the game is going for gear instead of levels. Gear is leveling up instead of EXP levels. Trials opened up as level caps where unlocked. The trials should be following suit with equivalent gains as the standards for gear qualities increase. We're not leveling up exp wise anymore so the current system doesn't allow the level 99 trial weapons to advance with the game.

When new content stages are being created as a replacement for EXP levels equivalent trials should be also unlocked for consistency. I don't know about you but I liked the opportunity to have so so so many paths to make something I wanted on my time. I didn't have to shout for help or participate in ESTABLISHED cookie cutter party setup groups either.

[Umichi]

the beauty of this game 1-75 was the fact that the diversity of play existed, now we only focus on one area, being a casualplayer i find doing the same thing all the time boring, i used to enjoy doing garrison, ballista, finishing up quests.... and then <insert time here> comes along and bam dynamis is starting with the ls you run with, 2-3ish hours completed i got myself some gear helped my mates out with building their current relic project and i got to do a little bit of pvp (which i enjoy doing)

now it's Log on > do imprints > do reives, look at all this time i have hey anyone wanna do dynamis? no thanks busy doing new content, let alone no invites to pug groups for fractures which everyone apparantly thinks is easy, even from my skill level i can identify that this requires good effort to complete. oh what's next hey lets do a skirmish...... wrong i don't have 10milish to burn every week and I don't know anyone who does them who can afford them, I've also only found 2 simulcrums both matching. After trying to trade one for a different piece to no avail for a couple days I sold em both and bought me halfway to third stage relic.

before i used to be able to dabble in a little bit of sky, nyzule, sea, dynamis, assault, leveling, meriting, questing, BCNMS, brenner, ballista, garrison for loot that was relevant to the content. then abyssea hit and all of that still mattered, then SoA hit and now 0 armour diversity pre abyssea (barring pieces that actualy help your job abilities and gear that are just superior because of how they were made). Now you can pretty much level up really fast without the need for most of the gear (even at 75) and as soon as you hit 86 bam abyssea cruour gear and you can do endgame content, which only involves abyssea and audolin now..