Trials of the Magians and casual players.

[RAIST]

TotM at current values are enough to do the introductory content (I'm including all delve besides the fracture bosses there). The issue there is elitism segregation. If TotM never prevented elitism segregation when R/E/M became the norm for shouts what makes you think that would change unless they were beefed up to the point they competed with mid/fully upgraded delve weapons? At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

Think this post finally shows a big problem with the debate.

This is not something that we "think"...it is not a hypothetical.

This very thing is happening---the players are rejecting Magian equipped players, pure and simple.

Let me repeat that, in case it is still being missed, regardless of how many times it has been pointed out:

people are being rejected because of gear selection.

Why? Because of the stats on the gear. It isn't because of their understanding/mastery of their job or the event---it is purely judgement made against their gear stats.

[Hawklaser]

TotM at current values are enough to do the introductory content (I'm including all delve besides the fracture bosses there). The issue there is elitism segregation. If TotM never prevented elitism segregation when R/E/M became the norm for shouts what makes you think that would change unless they were beefed up to the point they competed with mid/fully upgraded delve weapons? At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

This here is why I support the expansion of TotM weapons, and coupled with how hard it can be to get assistance with some older content. Just consider the level of shouts for Abyssea and Voidwatch related content pre and post Delve release. And while a weapon alone does not make it possible to do content, it is one of the pieces of gear that has a more noticeable impact on performance.

One job that this becomes really noticeable on is PLD, and its not because of their weapon, but their shield. As one pretty much needs to have Ochain or Aegis to be considered for any content deemed challenging. Now consider a newish player that may only like playing PLD, how are they going to get up to speed without massive help or leveling a job they don't like to 99?

Another thing to keep in mind, there are also those that don't want to do some of the new content because they don't want to feel like dead weight because they don't have average gear yet. As who wants to be the DD doing an average of 5dps when every other DD in the group is doing 20+DPS? They might be willing to try it once, but it is noticeable really quickly if one is under performing or not if don't filter out everything but your own actions. A great example of this comes from DD's and needing Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon back in the day as it made such a huge difference in their performance. This also applies to asking for help from a person's linkshell all the time just to get up to speed.

Along with the ways to get bayld either involving dealing with T+ monsters which not every job can do without above average gear, or activities that most would find boring quickly. How many people do you think find HELM activities or running back and forth between two points engaging? Added to this is the fact the item needed to obtain bayld without doing combat of some sort only can store up to a certain point and slowly rebuilds over time. Who wants to have to consistently do nothing but legwork quests and farming to be able to participate in more community active content?

So really there are a lot of things combining here to make this gap problem. From finding the new baseline content boring and uninteresting to not be able to do alternatives due to lack of help. But all in all, it boils down to a rift between well geared players and everyone else, and looking ahead to when Delve is no longer the "End Game" content, as SE did mention there are plans for that to be able to happen, as per this quote.

Fundamentally we will be making it so that the content level for content to come in the future continues to become higher, but there may be cases where we fill in areas where there is a large jump in content level as needed.

Also, in order to make it so there are various types of content sprawled across a single content level, we are supplementing it with content variations. We've also designed plans to enable resting periods where we will expand laterally instead of vertically, because players may get burnt out going full steam ahead.

Expanding TotM would fall in that lateral expansion, and depending on how it is done, can get more people involved in the new content. As it is, outside of Delve gear, most of the SoA equipment is barely sidegrades to already existing gear, which might help explain why lots of activity for non-Delve gear dried up shortly after Delve started getting put more on a farm state by those better geared. However when ever there is a vertical increase, older content that other players, especially newer ones, still need becomes mostly abandoned if there is nothing relevant to those going after the top end gear. Just the drop in colonization rates post Delve shows how fast that happens. And the bigger worry they should have then players getting burnt out going full steam ahead is players getting totally left in the dust because support for lower content levels vanishing, which is something expanded TotM would help alleviate.

[Zagen]

Think this post finally shows a big problem with the debate.

This is not something that we "think"...it is not a hypothetical.

This very thing is happening---the players are rejecting Magian equipped players, pure and simple.

Let me repeat that, in case it is still being missed, regardless of how many times it has been pointed out:

people are being rejected because of gear selection.

Why? Because of the stats on the gear. It isn't because of their understanding/mastery of their job or the event---it is purely judgement made against their gear stats.

And TotM was never equipment that prevented you from being rejected.

Let's take VW for example when it was the latest thing to do and I had just came back to the game after a long break. I couldn't say "TP Bonus SAM Shoha 5/5" and get in despite the fact that TP Bonus was a stronger weapon than Masa 85. I had to state my other gear, the fact I had a true 5 hit, that I had the KI to call out procs, and even said I would be spamming possible procs to reduce time to finding procs in case GK was one of them. At that point I was finally invited into the group only to find 2 85 masa SAMs who it turned out never gear swapped.

Yeah updating TotM is really going to get you in with the elitist idiot crowd.

I don't know what world you guys all live in where TotM made you valuable but I sure as hell wish it was on my server.

Edit:

Almost forgot about this:

But, weather IS predictable. The cycle repeats itself 100%, the trick is in understanding the pattern well enough to use it to your advantage.

Where are your results showing the pattern so that other players can benefit from this? I ask because I never noticed a pattern and if there is one that's amazing information to have.

Though I'm curious when you talk about the cycle repeating itself are you talking about the seasons which is fairly common knowledge when you begin to research weather effects. However still doesn't make weather happen 100% of the time, or do you mean weather within a cycle will appear 100% of the time at X time (X being defined by the cycle).

[Hawklaser]

And TotM was never equipment that prevented you from being rejected.

Let's take VW for example when it was the latest thing to do and I had just came back to the game after a long break. I couldn't say "TP Bonus SAM Shoha 5/5" and get in despite the fact that TP Bonus was a stronger weapon than Masa 85. I had to state my other gear, the fact I had a true 5 hit, that I had the KI to call out procs, and even said I would be spamming possible procs to reduce time to finding procs in case GK was one of them. At that point I was finally invited into the group only to find 2 85 masa SAMs who it turned out never gear swapped.

This here goes to show why expanding them would be beneficial. As if all your other gear is well put together, it gave you a chance to participate in the more end game like content.

They gave more options for hitting that baseline to be able to participate. The big reason RME holders other gear is not questioned as much, is because most people that have mostly finished RME are assumed to have the other baseline gear for a job simply because of the amount of investment that goes into a RME.

Expanding the magian weapons would not solve the exclusionary attitude the end game crowd has, but it would help in alleviating the growing problem of players getting left behind or stuck. The only real reason this is becoming an issue is because of how big and how fast the increases in top of the line gear came, and the future looks to include more jumps like this. If you don't see this as much of an issue, consider what a brand new player would have to do to get caught up to a point to be able to make decent contributions in the baseline events for the active community on anything but a support job.

Just compare a finished magian weapon to the "intro" Bayld weapons. The magian weapons do not need to keep up with all the current endgame equipment, but they should keep up with future "intro" weapons, especially since we have seen the trend of players to mostly abandon content once there are clear upgrades instead of side grades. If Delve plasm weapons become the new "intro" weapons, would it hurt for magian weapons with their more varied effects to get close to them?

[RAIST]

And TotM was never equipment that prevented you from being rejected.

Let's take VW for example when it was the latest thing to do and I had just came back to the game after a long break. I couldn't say "TP Bonus SAM Shoha 5/5" and get in despite the fact that TP Bonus was a stronger weapon than Masa 85. I had to state my other gear, the fact I had a true 5 hit, that I had the KI to call out procs, and even said I would be spamming possible procs to reduce time to finding procs in case GK was one of them. At that point I was finally invited into the group only to find 2 85 masa SAMs who it turned out never gear swapped.

Yeah updating TotM is really going to get you in with the elitist idiot crowd.

I don't know what world you guys all live in where TotM made you valuable but I sure as hell wish it was on my server.

Edit:

Almost forgot about this:


Where are your results showing the pattern so that other players can benefit from this? I ask because I never noticed a pattern and if there is one that's amazing information to have.

Though I'm curious when you talk about the cycle repeating itself are you talking about the seasons which is fairly common knowledge when you begin to research weather effects. However still doesn't make weather happen 100% of the time, or do you mean weather within a cycle will appear 100% of the time at X time (X being defined by the cycle).

You are in a way proving the point. Before, you were able to discuss it and work your way in. Now, they are very adamant about it....have this level of gear, or get out. Some of the shouts will even clearly state delve gear only. There's a thread over at alla addressing some observed impact of how strict these groups are being:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...87536238736968

As for the weather, the cycle simply repeats itself. I've discussed it in previous threads about how I started jotting down when I saw fire popping when doing trials for myself and friends because it simply felt like it was following a pattern. So, I started tracking it more actively. Whenever I saw dates/zones line up again, I would see it follow the tracked dates/zones exactly 100% again. I only have a few really good years that have a lot of dates listed, so I'm not 100% sure on the actual length for when it repeats, but it is not longer then 12 years. Each time I've used the list to plan dates, I'd pick up new ones I missed the last time and update it periodically. Perhaps I'll eventually be able to see it is a shorter time frame, but I can usually plot a decent course once every two weeks when needed--and it has worked for me without fail for over 2 years now. Some noteworthy game dates to watch for are March 16th and Oct. 20th---a RL week that falls between those dates in game will typically provide your best opportunities to find fire weather.

But, even without such a detailed tracking for a particular element, you can at least track it by season and plan for it to some extent. The bazaar info charts only cover partial sets for one year, but it is enough to give you a general hint of when to look for what elements in each zone it tracked. If you catch a strong week or weekend for your target, make a note of the game dates. In roughly 2 RL weeks, it may very well repeat again (or at least be close to it). The more you do it, the better you get at pinpointing it. The trick is to either use the tools out there to give you a heads-up in advance, or just simply use some common sense sometimes. You have a beach, it's the hottest time of the year....you'd be surprised how many times I've caught fire weather in Terrigan and Mt. Z that wasn't forecast. Not cheezy 5 minute cycles either, but entire afternoons worth (close to 20 minutes--plenty of time to make some progress with EP mobs that die really fast). Same goes for Light. Arouras sort of take their queues from real life also. You may be surprised just how often you may catch what you need if you really put your mind to it.

[Zagen]

You are in a way proving the point. Before, you were able to discuss it and work your way in. Now, they are very adamant about it....have this level of gear, or get out. Some of the shouts will even clearly state delve gear only. There's a thread over at alla addressing some observed impact of how strict these groups are being:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...87536238736968

I have yet to see anything to that degree well there's 1 group that might do that but the majority of them sound like the OP of the post. I mentioned it earlier but on Bismarck the only stickler has been PLD with Ochain. I've seen a lot of DDs that are magian DDs, they gear swap and pop food so not halfassing it, granted for all I know the leader was told all this much like I did in my VW example.

When I go on COR, SCH, WHM I just send "Job Do you need it?" and well I can count on 1 hand where I got asked follow up questions. Obviously those are jobs people tend to ignore as long as they function but again it goes against the OP you linked. I have sent "PUP Do you need it?" kind of as a joke and the response I got was "sure, if you're boasting PUP you either have some balls or it's fairly pimp" I didn't let them down but I couldn't help but laugh.

Don't get me wrong I get that elitism is a real problem, I'm not trying to belittle it but TotM isn't going to fix that. Changing Delve as well as the way acquiring the required KI to access it as a leader.

I mentioned one of these earlier but a couple ideas, maybe I'll make a post in general to see how many likes that gets.

1) Reverse how NMs and Beads work. Beads pop NMs instead of them being popped.

It's obvious by now or should be to SE most of the time we're just holding the NMs instead of actually killing them. Removing them would remove the requirement of 1-2 Ochain PLD which is a huge bottle neck.

2) Allow players to enter Wildskeeper Rieve without having the KI, they can get drops but no KI reward.

This makes it more like VW and gives players who already have the KI to enter Delve a reason to help people trying to get the KI.

Ideas like this (not saying mine are awesome just examples) are ideas that will allow more players to have access while still keeping the really good stuff fairly exclusive to the people who are "hardcore". More players having access in turn lightens the elitism in groups.

I wouldn't outright be mad if TotM was expanded/updated after all I have the means to power through just about w/e they come up with. However TotM being expanded to the point of competing even with Skirmish weapons reduces the pool of players willing to do Delve.

Weather Research

Damn it's as I feared. Yeah that kind of works in the sense you get an idea of when you can log back in but it isn't a 100% kinda thing :/

[Afania]

As with my other thread concerning Walk of Echoes weapons, I have a few concerns and questions regarding Trials of the Magians and the casual playerbase.

It's all well and good that the super weapons of the expansion have come to fruition, and there are plans to increase R/M/E weapons in damage and practicality. These changes will keep many people happy and have goals to strive for in the new content.

However, there are also many people who do not have R/M/E to start with and instead focus on Trials of the Magians in their spare time. With the implementation of the new weapons that completely and utterly outclass Trials of the Magians, and with R/M/E getting upgraded, what will become of the Trials of the Magians system and weapons?

Surely this system was not implemented to be unused in such a short amount of time. Will all of the gil and time spent here as well be discarded in favor of the Adoulin expansion rewards? I'm curious to see if Trials of the Magians will have new trials added to keep the content relevant as a lower difficulty-lower tier reward option for those who don't have the time or desire to make a R/M/E weapon or try their luck in Delve/Skirmish without one.

Casual players like to set goals, too. I thought that's why TotM was implemented in the first place, so everyone could have something they can grind every day and accomplish over time.

Thank you for reading.

Trial of magian weapons aren't much more friendly to casual players than delve weapons. Trial of magian needs to be done on certain day, and casual players often ended up log on wrong day during their playtime and have a hard time to get it done. You also need AoE burn jobs to kill it efficiently. Certain path needs to camp NM, that's also a pain to casual players. Not to mention 3M+ cost for fire path weapons, which is also a lot for casuals. Overall it's a pain in the ass to make.

Delve weapons you can just buy KI from others or join /shout, and do 5 fracture runs to get it.

[Kimjongil]

I think most MoT weapons are great for macro pieces. I play blue mage often and Sometimes you can macro them in after a weapon skill, for your spell to skill chan. Beyond that, today I saw someone trying to sell a Kclub for 140m. Now the multi hit weapons should be upgraded to 5-8 hits. Lower base dmg. If this was done, it would end high prices on items like Kclub, allow skill ups easy and character customization.

[Osmond]

Delve weapons you can just buy KI from others or join /shout, and do 5 fracture runs to get it.

Im sry, but that excuse is pretty lame. Why not just be honest and tell ppl that u screwed. The chance in the ppl willing to shout for non R/E/M/D ppl to get in for gil is slim right now. They not gonna do it while it's still the main thing going. Once SE release another content like Delve and surpass that then they'll do it, but I doubt it.

[darkhorror]

I really hope they bring back magian trials as it meant that I could always log on and have something I could just go do. I didn't have to wait for a group, if I wanted to log on for an hour I could go and work towards finishing a trial. Or if I was waiting around for an event to start up I could do the same thing.