Job Adjustments for the Next Version Update

[Duelle]

Spirits:
Have been useless since the job was introduced.
Abysmal magic accuracy and magic atk.
Absolutely impossible to control actions.
AI, is there even one for this pet?
Were given a reason to purchase but only to gain more BP before running out of MP.

This is a long shot of ridiculous proportions, but here goes:

Redesigning Spirits

Instead of being placed in the same category as avatars, spirits could be summoned to the player's side alongside avatars. Player characters would be limited to one Avatar and one Spirit at the same time.

Entirely remove Spirit AI and perpetuation. In addition, make Spirits not targetable and scale their model down and treat them as "attachments" to the player character (have Spirits move with the player instead of /following them like avatars).

Have spirits grant the summoner a list of abilities and spells based on the spirit the summoner has called to their side. Potency of abilities/spells gained through spirits scale with Summoning Magic Skill. Abilities/spells gained through Spirits scale up to their appropriate ranks depending on the level of the Summoner. An example would be that fire spirit could give the SMN access to Fire. At lv13 that fire spell is Fire I. If a 75 SMN were to summon their fire spirit, the spell would instead be Fire IV (so no, SMNs would not be able to downrank spells the way other mages can).

Samples:

Fire Spirit
- Fire I-IV
- Addle
- Trait: Fire Affinity

Water Spirit
- Aquaveil
- Water I-IV
- Poison
- Trait: Water Affinity

Light Spirit
- Dia I-II
- Cure I-V
- Trait: Light Affinity

The balancing aspect of spirits is that spells gained through them cost more than their BLM/WHM counterparts (ideally it could be something like baseline spell cost + half of the summoner's current level). They would also gain less potency per point of Summoning Skill compared to what they'd get from Elemental/Healing Skill. As an example, if Fire were to gain 1.00 potency per point of Elemental Magic Skill, Fire would gain 0.85 potency per point of Summoning Skill.

[sweetidealism]

Oooh! I like that idea. Something like~

Merit Category: Pets (individual 5/max 10)
Jug pets X/5
Avatars X/5
Wyverns X/5
Automatons X/5

and maybe Luopans X/5?

I would honestly be interested in seeing a concept like that fleshed out, though I'd say it would definitely need to be a bit more well thought out than just one blanket buff per job, because drg aside, I don't think smns, bsts, or pups could have one single merit that would be able to functionally improve their pets across the board.

I would suggest something more along the lines of a category that would coincide with the weapon skill and magic skill categories. A pet skill category, if you will. Thus, the merits could look something like this:
Pet: Physical Damage x/8 - Either (R)atk/(R)acc, or straight up base damage increase
Pet: Magical Damage x/8 - Either MAB/Macc, or just plain magical affinity (ie: Magian staves, but for all elements)
Pet: Endurance x/8 - Either defense/MDB or DT-
Pet: Vigor x/8 - Improved HP/MP
Pet: Physical Potency x/4 - Crit Hit Rate/Damage
Pet: Magical Potency x/4 - Magic Crit Hit Rate/Damage
The category cap would be either /20 or /24. This is just a spitball, though.

I don't see why a blanket buff wouldn't work.

Let's say that I merit Automatons and Luopans 5/5 each; it would be like meriting each of your categories 8/8 but JUST for automatons and luopans.

In your idea, I have to choose between individual parameters; what's the point? I can either have a glass cannon that will die at first sight of AoE, or I can have something sturdy that won't actually contribute anything. I don't want to fix just one aspect of my pets, I want to fix ALL aspects of them.

[Hawklaser]

I don't see why a blanket buff wouldn't work.

Let's say that I merit Automatons and Luopans 5/5 each; it would be like meriting each of your categories 8/8 but JUST for automatons and luopans.

In your idea, I have to choose between individual parameters; what's the point? I can either have a glass cannon that will die at first sight of AoE, or I can have something sturdy that won't actually contribute anything. I don't want to fix just one aspect of my pets, I want to fix ALL aspects of them.

Could maybe do both? Kinda like how jobs have two categories of merits in each menu. One for getting your preferred pet jobs pets improved to a nice baseline, and the others so can customize pet more to fit how you like using them?

[sweetidealism]

Could maybe do both? Kinda like how jobs have two categories of merits in each menu. One for getting your preferred pet jobs pets improved to a nice baseline, and the others so can customize pet more to fit how you like using them?

You know, I like that even better!

[Zhronne]

To further add on my previous post, it is a bad game-design idea to fix the problems of a certain class through certain specific items for three main basic reasons:

1. You will have to obtain that item (and possibly it could be even hard, and until you do your class will remain "broken")
2. You will limit the freedom of the player which will be "bound" to equip certain items to "fix" their class
3. As game proceeds and stats are raised even further, SE will need to release even better fixing items

This cannot work on the long run.
The problem of pet jobs are different and reach a very different scale for different jobs, but I think they could be generalized in two different issues:


Pet Survivability
You cannot directly heal pets, but are limited by specific abilities that only the master can use and that have certain cooldowns. Also pets do not have their own gear, and "Pet: ..." gear the master can equip is obviously (and rightfully) limited.
This makes survivability of pets particularly hard in certain fights.


Pet scaling
Unlike other classes, the damage of pet classes is split between master and pet.
When another class receives a buff that boosts its ouput, this boost affects the 100% of that class' possible damage output.
When a pet class receives the same buff, only a smaller % of its overall damage is boosted (the master's).
The same happens with gear.
As new gear is released, 100% of another class' damage is boosted, while only a % of a pet job class damage is boosted (the master's), making the gap between master and pet even stronger and making the previous issue even more influent.


Possible Solutions:

Pet Survivability: Cannot make pets too resistant to overall damage, or it could create some annoying situations (especially for BST). They should instead add a job trait that makes so pets receive reduced damage from AoE moves that do hit them, but that didn't directly target them or their master.
The amount of reduction should be balanced, not too minimal, not too strong of course, and could be furtherly enhanced by specific equipment.

Pet Scaling: This probably isn't a big issue for SMN (they have other issues), and it's a minimal factor for DRG, but it is very crucial for BST and PUP. It's also the "norm" in practically almost every other MMO.
This scaling should be balanced as well. Cannot make it too big or you would make "Pet: ..." gear useless.
It has to be a small bonus that scales with some of the master's stats and according to a specific formula, grats specific dynamic bonuses to the pet.
This way "Pet: ..." gear will still be relevant/interesting, but it would be an additional option for specific builds to suit specific situations or player's tastes and styles. It would not be something "required" to fix your class.


If a class has issues and needs a fix, you need to do it through job traits or job abilities, not through specific equipment that forces the player to gather such item and binds them to use it.
Gear should be something to be looking at to make your class stronger or more "special", not something to "fix" your class.

[Zhronne]

And to add to the pet merit category:

That's a very cool idea and I like it a lot, hope they'll think about implementing it! But it still wouldn't solve the Pet Scaling issue, and I doubt it would have a big impact on the Pet Survivability either.

As I mentioned before, I don't think a direct "Pet: damage taken -X%" (wether you get it through gear or merits) is the right solution to go, if anything it's potentially "dangerous" because it might make certain pet jobs too strong (especially BST) and require SE to nerf the class afterwise, and I don't really want a nerf >.>
Damage taken is currently fine imho, altough a few more gear options wouldn't hurt.
The thing they need to address is not the direct damage the pet gets, but the "indirect" damage, i.e. that from AoE that target your tank but end up hitting your pet too and yourself.
You can be healed by the party healer, but your pet has cooldowns to be healed/debuffed, so it's only right they take a certain % of reduced damage from these attacks, if they're not directly targeting the master or the pet.

A wide range of monster abilities are AoE around a certain target, easy to make a job trait for Pets that takes this into account.
Other abilities are instead AoE centered around the monster itself. For these abilities they could make so the Pet receives lower damage if he is below a certain threshold in the enmity list.

[Sasaraixx]

Adding grips is now considered a job adjustment? I can't take this seriously. Unless these items are beyond broken and easy to obtain, nothing will change. Why not listen to the players? There are TONS of great ideas in this thread alone.

Also, there is no follow up to the enmity concerns we've voiced AND no discussion about the fundamental issues hurting pet jobs. On the same day we get a lengthy post about R/M/E weapons and changes to 1-handed damage calculations, they tell us that these are our adjustments? I'm just about ready to give up.

[Kojo]

When are RUN and GEO Mythics and Mythic WSs coming?

[Hawklaser]

That's a very cool idea and I like it a lot, hope they'll think about implementing it! But it still wouldn't solve the Pet Scaling issue, and I doubt it would have a big impact on the Pet Survivability either.

Well as to the scaling issue, I know certain merit categories have had their max amounts of adjustments increased over time, and different categories have different limitations. They can at least go up to 15 improvements to a single merit, as shown by hp/mp merits, they can also break a category into two groups as shown by job merit categories. So unless 15 is as high as a single meritable choice can go, that could take care of a good amount of the scaling.

How I would likely do is would have generic boost portion for a specific jobs pets be a flat increase to pet stats, essentially to get the pet a little below the baseline raw stats for certain content levels, and as content levels go up the amount spendable in this section could go up, or values adjusted if a cap is hit. While the second grouping of merits could be more percent based improvements, with a more strict max per/combo limit on these ones.

Unfortunately, BST and possibly PUP would be the more difficult ones to balance with a system like this. BST mostly because of the all the variability they get with pets currently. PUP would be more due to attachment interactions.

[Zhronne]

Well as to the scaling issue, I know certain merit categories have had their max amounts of adjustments increased over time

Don't think this would be a solution.
"Scaling" means that the stats of your pets (or at least a small part of them) receive a dynamic bonus according to the stats of the master.
This means that if your master receives a buff that increase its stats, the pet will receive a small % of increase to.
This means that if your master upgrades his gear then the pet's stats too will see a small jump forward.

Can't abuse of this like other games do, wouldn't work in FFXI, and we don't want to make pet-specific buffs/gear useless.
At least I don't.
That's why I suggested that this scaling should be very small and only applied to a certain number of stats.
For instance Attack, 10:1. For every 10 points of attack the master has, the pet will gain one.
Master has 800 attack? Pet will have +80 attack bonus.
They could apply this to Defense too and other stats, with different ratios of course.
Only some very basic stats like basic attributes maybe and Att/ratt/mab/acc/racc/macc/def/eva.

For everything else and much more, you'll still have "Pet: ..." gear.
I'm not against the new "Pets" merit category btw. I would warmly welcome that! I'm just staying that they should do "only" that but both things, because while the merit category would be an awesome addition, it probably wouldn't solve the issues I mentioned (scaling and survivability)