Follow-up: Level 99 Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and Walk of Echoes Weapons

[Monchat]

these changes sound great but I forsee mythic weapons + empyrean weapon skill combo being broken in many cases.

[xiozen]

The fact that weapons will have to be 99 is kinda upsetting, an upsetting number of people i know saying something to the effect of "If i have to get my RME to 99 for it to be considered for deserving to be on par with this new weapons i am quitting. The amount of effort put into then doesnt deserve a spit in the face like this" Its hard enough getting these weapons so them being so substantially outclassed by these new weapons unless they are 99 is on pace to offend many people.

Alot of players have an 85, 90 and 95 R/M/E weapon... I'd imagine "most" that have an R/M/E weapon under 99 would express similar sentiments. Personally I only one lvl 99 R/M/E. My thoughts about this would be to suggest working on getting the R/M/E to lvl 99 or if that proves too challenging, getting one of the Delve/Skirmish weapons. Not trying to say the work you put into getting your 85, 90 or 95 R/M/E should be downplayed--no... I am simply making the observation that the weapon isn't "finished" and by "finished" I am referring to its final stage. (I am excluding Afterglow for obvious reasons).

The idea of Challenge, Effort, Reward in the minds of people is not so that their reward will be belittled, the reason RME were considered the "Ultimate weapons" is because we worked hard for them and expected them to be the best on at least one of the best regardless of 85, 90, 95 or 99 we put in the effort when we thought the reward was worth the challenge, but if you give the reward to everyone and they can use stronger weapons with the same WS for less effort then what was our effort for then?

Well the producer did say he wanted to change the viewpoint of the R/M/E's being the best weapons by introducing weapons that can also be considered comparable. But I think the issue here is not the comparability of the R/M/E weapons to the Delve/Skirmish weapons, based on your argument---it seems that you'd rather some adjustment be proposed based on R/M/E weapons that are below lvl 99 (in effect, weapons that are not "finished"). Try this: Finish the weapon to 99... then come back to the table and argue about "the idea of challenge, effort, reward" an unfinished R/M/E can't be considerd the "Ultimate weapons"... can they?

So in short my requests are this: 1:Consider making level 90 and on Weapons closer to on par with the new equipment and content 2:Please don't give full time access of Empyrean weapon skills via WoE weapons regardless of the difficulty planned for doing so as it will Belittle empy owners, unless the unlocked WSs are weakened without having the corresponding Empyrean/WoE weapon equipped

As far as your requests--#1. I can't see that happening at all. The weapons are unfinished... please justify making lvl 90 and on weapons closer to on par with the new equipment and content, if they are unfinished... I seriously would like to know the justification. Cause if it was me (my opinion)... I'd just stop doing the trials for an unfinished R/M/E and get a drop item weapon from Delve or Skirmish or even from a Bayld purchase... less time, energy and effort involved and you'll end up with a significantly better weapon. #2. No comment--the impact of the WoE weapons and the weapon skills being unlocked should be carefully evaluated before being introduced into the game... since we're talking about weapon skills that have greater significantly greater damage multiplier by TP being used with a potentially greater damaging weapon (post-SoA).

[Byrth]

I would also unlock the RME WS for anyone that has their weapon level 90-99.

[Kajikuro]

@ Xiozen
You mistake my intent, im merely pointing out that casual players would probably prefer this because demanding they get the weapons to 99 is very disheartening, and the general response i heard when the initial suggestion of raising the damage of RME to match Delve weapons was that in short, "If it has to be 99 i quit" for assorted reasons. Im willing to do it if i feel like it, i could personally care less but my justification? its just a shame to watch as SE doubles the pace of nails into its own coffin. When i get a 99 weapon, my argument will be the same, dont bite the hand that feels you, and if you do at least be nice about it. Furthermore you apparently mistake the word "finished" for the phrase "kinda finished but not really" as the only RME weapons that meet the definition of "finished" are afterglowed and without that they have not finished, so go do that and tell me how finished you were, the fact they are allowing the "kinda finished" versions to be upgraded merely falls in your favor. As far as the Empyrean WSs we kinda agree accept i dont want Empyreans to become glorified normal Nyzal isle dropped weapons, which is what they would become.

[Severence]

Actually, Camate. Question. Will the R/M/E Revamps be the 99 only, I assume?

[Rekin]

With the upcoming revamps are some weapons and weaponskills going to be changed fundamentally to be actually effective? What immediately comes to mind is Gungnir, Redemption and Rhongomiant that are considered notoriously inferior even when compared to other RMEs. Or are these new changes simply adjustments to dmg+ atk/acc as shown in the sample? Will the weapon skills tied to the weapons be empowered to provide a new niche usage that fundamentally changes how the job functions? (ie. how Apocalypse allows DRK greater survivability with great damage and aftermath effects) and will Gungnir's additional defense down effect finally stack with other forms of defense down thus giving it an increase level of utility aside from actually weakening Dragoon by overwriting it's Angon effect?

As of now Gungnir does not fundamentally change how the job functions nor does it enhance it's currently role. Gierskogul and its aftermath presently provide nothing for the job as the weaponskill itself has always been subpar and extremely weak when compared to alternatives (aka any polearm weapon skill equal to and after penta thrust) and the aftermath atrocious as any dragoon who is using a subjob for defensive purposes has a longer and more potent(even if by 1-2%) spikes of some kind in effect. As a whole the weapon is a failure for what it was at 75 and still remains such at 99.

Redemption is simply weak compared to apocalypse in utility, damage, and performance bringing one to question why it even exists. Such a question can be applied to Rhongomiant whose stats are effectively identical and both share an equally weak weaponskill that effectively provides nothing for the jobs they belong too.

If I remember correctly there was a dev post indicating that they were going to make gungnir's additional effect stack with other defense downs.

[detlef]

@ Xiozen
You mistake my intent, im merely pointing out that casual players would probably prefer this because demanding they get the weapons to 99 is very disheartening, and the general response i heard when the initial suggestion of raising the damage of RME to match Delve weapons was that in short, "If it has to be 99 i quit" for assorted reasons. Im willing to do it if i feel like it, i could personally care less but my justification? its just a shame to watch as SE doubles the pace of nails into its own coffin. When i get a 99 weapon, my argument will be the same, dont bite the hand that feels you, and if you do at least be nice about it. Furthermore you apparently mistake the word "finished" for the phrase "kinda finished but not really" as the only RME weapons that meet the definition of "finished" are afterglowed and without that they have not finished, so go do that and tell me how finished you were, the fact they are allowing the "kinda finished" versions to be upgraded merely falls in your favor. As far as the Empyrean WSs we kinda agree accept i dont want Empyreans to become glorified normal Nyzal isle dropped weapons, which is what they would become.

It sounds like Delve weapons (30k ones) are what your friends should be shooting for.

[Afania]

Weapon Revamps
Sorry, I got off track for a bit, but now I'd like to return to the topic at hand.

To start off, I still need to discuss the implementation period with the rest of the development team, so it will be a bit difficult to address this immediately in the next version update, and we cannot make any promises as to when this will take place.

In regards to the kind of stats that will be added when we revamp these weapons, fundamentally the afterglow and aftermath effects as well as the other special stats will carry over and we'll be setting damage values, attack, and accuracy stats to coincide with the content level.

While the stats will be quite strong, we do not plan on making it possible to continuously enhance them in short intervals like the original method of enhancing via Trial of the Magians.

However, RME weapons have been considered the ultimate weapons up until this point in time, but I feel that this needs to change a bit.

I would like to make a shift so that instead of having it so that other weapons aren't necessary if you have RME weapons, you have a choice. If you are happy with RME, then you can use RME, and for those who want other weapons you can use other weapons.

With that said, there may be players who are worried if these weapons will eventually become unusable, but to give an example we had the lead make some calculations for the stats needed to combat the Delve boss monsters, and the below is what the RME swords would look like:

Excalibur

↓

Burtgang

↓

Almace

↓

In regards to Walk of Echoes weapons, these were implemented with the concept of allowing players to use the specialized empyrean weapon skills, so instead of revamping them we felt it more appropriate to have them serve to unlock the weapons skills (planning to have restrictions based on jobs and level). Also, we are looking into adjustments for the method to create Walk of Echoes weapons.

---

Although this proposal(base dmg boost) is on the right track, it's still not thoughtful enough and certain empy 99 would still ended up a waste of effort. One of the example would be Armageddon lv 99, in most situations you'd use it for WF, it's base dmg/rattk/racc/ODD would be very irrelevant if you're using WF over another physical WS, and since base dmg doesn't affect the WS, technically you can just use a WoE gun to unlock WF, then use WF on a ice path magian gun with MAB+11 and do more WF dmg than an arma 99. The result would ended up a WoE gun+ice path gun can do close or more dmg than an arma 99

I spent around 190M to 99 my arma, when HMP cost 110~120k each. And I don't think it's fair that I have to grind another WoE+ice path or w/e new MAB gun for better result than a 190M arma 99 in situations you'd use WF.

I think either empy WS mod need to be more than +20, empy WS boost on empy 99 or change magical WS weapon, such as Armageddon, into mattk/macc+20. I have np grinding another higher base gun for last stand in w/e future content, but if I'm going to use WF, I want to WF with my Arma 99 and not anything else.

[BahamutFURYZERO9999]

While I understand what he's proposing, I don't quite get what the direction of the R/M/E weapons are going towards. Are they going to make R/M/E weapons just be on par with the Delve weapons? Or will the R/M/E weapons be completely useless in the future?

I'm perfectly fine with them making the R/M/E weapons on the same level as the Delve weapons because it'll keep the R/M/E wielders happy and also give more options to the players who don't have a lot of time to spend on getting the R/M/E weapons.

[Taint2]

I would also unlock the RME WS for anyone that has their weapon level 90-99.

A simple 5min Timed BC where you must use the RME WS on a Maat type mob would work just fine. (Mythic weapon type fight) It would allow anyone with access to the WS to unlock it. (85+ emp, WOE, Relic) Could make the player WS at 100,200,300tp like the Mythic quest to cock block people trying to unlock Relic WSs with the Abyssea drop weapons.