Why is there no Summoner path on the new Delve gear?

[Jerbob]

I don't much like the idea of a piece of "ultra gear" either, though I think it speaks volumes about SMN that the grip Babekeke suggests is probably about right despite appearing completely excessive at first glance. What would be more fun, I think, is to make the bonuses intrinsic to the avatar but attach the whole thing to a series of mini-quests and key items that essentially "unlock potential" in SMN. You could tie it to requirements in Summoning Magic skill, or SMN level, something like that. It'd give the progression to a more powerful avatar but, more importantly, give lots of opportunities for more SMN storyline development!

SMN is a questline that practically writes itself. We still don't know everything about the energy thief from our AF quests, and the entire reason for Carbuncle making a pact with us to allow us to be summoners - showing the Avatars what the world is like so they won't reset it when they awaken - is massively open-ended. What more can we learn about Karaha-Baruha and the kind of Summoning he studied in the Animastery, obviously so different to ours? How was the Windurstian pact with Fenrir made? What's the deal with elemental spirits? Why do the developers hate us so much? Just have each quest upgrade a "Whisper of Rainbows" key item, replacing it each time with one with an extra bonus - the magic attack bonus, accuracy and so forth.

Of course it's never going to happen, but I can dream.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, It will never happen. Don't get me wrong i wish the Development team was bigger than it is so it'd have time to do this stuff... But, It doesn't.

Think a Pre-req shoulda been beating Carbuncle Prime BCNM, If you've beaten it you know why.

[Mokeil]

Why do the developers hate us so much?

We may never know the answer to that one...

Speaking of quest lines, though... I've always wanted a super, world-spanning epic in order to re-fuse Phoenix into one being again. It would start with the theft of Tenzen's sword, and would end up involving just about every major NPC from Zilart through (at least) Aht Urhgan. The final battle would be atop the Cradle of Rebirth, and would end with Phoenix as a summonable avatar.

There would then have been a follow-up BCNM fight for everyone who had all the other terrestrial avatars, where they fight next to you against Bahamut to convince him to stop being a doody-head and sign up with you, at least as a two-hour type avatar.

Alas for things that will never be...

[Dekusuta]

I joke about this a lot but I don't think dev 'hate' summoners. They are IMHO just lost as to where to take the job. Summoner's raison d'etre is an overpowered mage class that can summon an avatar to fudge things up, that by its nature makes it very hard to implement in a balanced way.

Summoners never truly found a home in the pre Abyssea game either outside of end-game linkshells needing them initially for Nether Blast Kirin kiting to JoL parties. So our niche was to do unresisted magical damage from a source of damage that is disposable.

Then when killing became a zerg affair, PD was our job.

With Delve and Adoulin content, our role is less clear, and we haven't had any bloodpacts or abilities that fits into that content. I've yet to see SMNs requested in all the Delve runs I've been in.

I've only seem them in Wildskeeper and maybe Delve NM runs. In the meantime, we've lost ground in the soloing area.

When I was new to the game in 2004, I was gobsmacked by a SMN carby kiting Aquarius for dama cloth farming. SMN hasn't been that kind of Solo job for a long time. While BSTs and Pups can farm a relic solo. That's just kind of insulting to SMNs.

If we were given something OP on a party/end game sphere that makes us desirable, I wouldn't be so annoyed. But we weren't.

[FaeQueenCory]

1 grip:
BP timer-15;
Summoning Magic skill +50;
perp cost -5;
avatar: MAB+50;
att+50;
acc+50;
eva+50;
damage taken -20%;
all stats +70;

And I shan't stand for ANYTHING less

0_0
Yesssssss......
The grip spot for smn is basically already been "only vox here plz" for forever now....
I'm not really complaining about that... +3 summoning skill.... >_> being forsaken...
Especially after the advent of all the >+3 skill items in the past few years...
PLUS it might be one of the pieces that will be needed for that mythical +600 summoning skill!

[Clou777]

OMG a community rep in here answering!!! Quick follow up question:

Any update as to when we might ever see the 2 promised Avatars from 2 years ago???

seems we will never get the answer to this question and possibly not the avatars either, SE seem to have been trolling us with that for years, they can make an entire expansion but cant deliver these things still.

[Darwyn]

Hi all, I'm new to the game so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about but I would like to share my thoughts on this anyway. Since I started the game I decided I wanted to be a SMN, what I initially expected from the SMN job was something similar to the other FFs' summons, a spell that brought out a summon did massive damage and had a big mp cost. To my surprise summons are treated like "pets" and are capable of participating in battle, not a bad idea but not as cool as I thought. So far I've lvl'd my SMN job to 59 with SCH as my sub. There are several things I've noticed about other players expectations regarding someone playing a SMN job.

1. Everyone expects me to have WHM as my sub job.
2. Everyone expects me to have all the Avatars already.
3. Everyone expects me to buff/heal them.
4. Everyone downplays my roll in a party.

Here's my thoughts on those expectations.

1. SMN should NOT be another WHM, I don't want to sit there and watch HPs.. I hate it.
2. I'm new, getting fame sucks and takes forever. Cut me some slack.
3. See 1.
4. Well this is why I opted to get SCH as my sub because I can do some Elemental damage also, while my avatar is busy staring at the mob (even though I already cast assault).

My thoughts on SMN as a job and what I think of it so far.

The avatars need to have some better Blood Pacts with more damage considering the 45 sec wait time.
I noticed that you can't target Avatars with healing spells or buffs even though in my eyes they are being treated like an NPC party member <--- This alone would allow the Avatars to do some decent damage with proper buffs and would deal with avatar persistence problem.

Also as a summoner unless you are subbing some other damage dealing class you are pretty open to unexpected attacks from agro'd mobs (plenty of times I've died because of this) unless you have you're summon out constantly.
Elementals seem pretty useless to me (unpredictable cast times, pacts) I only use mine for Siphon.

Another thing I noticed is that the SMN job seems unfinished/half-baked. I don't know what it is but I just feels that way.
Maybe it's the lack of job related equipment at lower lvls (and higher) or maybe it's the lack of blood pacts. I also see no benefit to using SMN as a sub job other than higher MP but again I'm probably wrong.

Overall I believe the devs are looking not so much to balance the jobs with one another but rather create a need for them. Similar to the job systems in FPS like Battlefield where medics heal and revive, engineers fix equipment.. ect. However, personally I think that they are going about it all wrong. Instead of making Job specific quests/missions they should focus on how each job fits in a party situation. EX. WHM are expected to heal, BLM are expected to weaken/slow and bomb, Warriors are expected to deal damage etc. I think SMN should fit in this party role as a little bit of everything depending on the Avatar. Essentially when I think Summons I think FF7, think phoenix down, Knights of the round, bahamut(sic).

So far I like the game (3 weeks in) but honestly I feel like I put to much time into SMN atm and wished I had LVL'd some other class first.. now I just gotta see this thru to 99 so I can use this to make my transition to another job easier.

**On a side note.. I wish SMN didn't have to use staffs.. pretty much every other game I play the summoner gets to use at least a dagger. This is just my personal opinion though.

[Babekeke]

OK, let me have a go at answering some of your questions, and addressing some of your concerns:

Hi all, I'm new to the game so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about but I would like to share my thoughts on this anyway. Since I started the game I decided I wanted to be a SMN, what I initially expected from the SMN job was something similar to the other FFs' summons, a spell that brought out a summon did massive damage and had a big mp cost.

Ironically, this is what Odin is (not available until level 75) and it's absolutely terrible (mainly due to the fact that you can only use him once an hour).

To my surprise summons are treated like "pets" and are capable of participating in battle, not a bad idea but not as cool as I thought. So far I've lvl'd my SMN job to 59 with SCH as my sub. There are several things I've noticed about other players expectations regarding someone playing a SMN job.

1. Everyone expects me to have WHM as my sub job.

Then everyone is a dick. I almost always sub SCH on SMN. SCH can do most of what WHM can as a lvl 49 sub, yet it can also swap to dark arts for a quick drain/aspir. At 99 with a Twilight Cloak, SMN is also a great choice of job to use Impact, due to the almost limitless MP, but you need to be subbing SCH to use impact to any effect.

2. Everyone expects me to have all the Avatars already.

Though it is possible to get all avatars by level 15 without any outside help, it is by no means necessary, particularly if you are just soloing. Here's a tip for soloing the mini avatar fights: Get a higher level SMN friend to use earthen ward and Aerial Armor on you (or since you're level 59, you can do this on yourself once you have garuda and titan). For some reason buffs don't wear before entering. If you have no problem with the fight, but can't get enough fame, then this guide will help you to get fame.

3. Everyone expects me to buff/heal them.

Kind of dependant on #2. If you have all of the avatars and you can constantly keep up buffs on the party and deal damage to the mobs, then you prove your place in a party. If your avatars don't do much damage, and you don't have avatars with useful buffs, then yes, you'll need to buff and heal. This is the way that it's always been for SMN, like it or not. Good news is that it gets better 70+ when you actually get some decent Blood Pacts (we still use them at 99).

4. Everyone downplays my roll in a party.

See #3. Also, maybe you would have more luck in an alliance book party, either level sync'd in crawler's nest, or in Bostaunieux Oubliette (never try to spell that - use the auto-translate).

Here's my thoughts on those expectations.

1. SMN should NOT be another WHM, I don't want to sit there and watch HPs.. I hate it.

Even as SCH SJ, people will expect you to be another WHM. The best solution is to try and get an actual WHM in your PT. Even then, you'll need to toss out the occasional cure now and again.

2. I'm new, getting fame sucks and takes forever. Cut me some slack.

See my link above.

3. See 1.

See 1.

4. Well this is why I opted to get SCH as my sub because I can do some Elemental damage also, while my avatar is busy staring at the mob (even though I already cast assault).

Personally I would only use drain and aspir from the dark arts side. Due to you only getting access to the lower nukes with SCH as a SJ they aren't going to contribute much. Also, get a Chatoyant staff (1.5 mil) or if you can't make that kind of gil, then an Iridal Staff (150k). These staffs help with both your avatar perp cost, Cure amounts and also your nuking acc and power.

My thoughts on SMN as a job and what I think of it so far.

The avatars need to have some better Blood Pacts with more damage considering the 45 sec wait time.

This is a sore point among many of us. Mainly due to the 45 (49 with BP charge time) second cap, we feel it should be lowered to at least 30 seconds. Particularly when melees can reduce their attack speed (and thus the rate at which they WS) by 80%, yet we can only reduce BP timers by 25%. And we're still limited by MP. By reducing BPs by 80%, we could BP every 12 seconds :-) (16 with BP charge time).

I noticed that you can't target Avatars with healing spells or buffs even though in my eyes they are being treated like an NPC party member <--- This alone would allow the Avatars to do some decent damage with proper buffs and would deal with avatar persistence problem.

Some of the avatars (Carbuncle, Garuda and Leviathan) have BPs that can heal themselves, along with those in party that are close to them. Strategically, you need to choose which avatar to use depending on your situation. If you want to be able to cure the avatar, you need to use 1 of those 3.
If you want to be able to buff your avatar, then the wards available to each avatar will again affect which you want to use. Also your level. At 65, Diabolos is the best nuker, and Fenrir is the best for physical damage. At your current level, Ifrit can be good for damage by using crimson howl before a double punch. Though I think Shiva's Double slap even un-buffed was pretty powerful, and if you use frost armour before-hand, her spikes will likely paralyse the mob when it hits her.
Also remember that (most) physical BPs can be used in a skillchain, and the magic BPs can be used to Magic Burst. This significantly increases the amount of damage that you do, but can require a bit of practice to get the timing right.

Also as a summoner unless you are subbing some other damage dealing class you are pretty open to unexpected attacks from agro'd mobs (plenty of times I've died because of this) unless you have you're summon out constantly.

Tips for this not to happen with SCH sub:
1) if you're running somewhere, use sneak and invisible.
2) keep aquaveil up to make it less likely that you will get interrupted when trying to summon an avatar/spirit to save you.
3) You should now have access to Blink. This will help to save you as there's a chance that the mob will hit a shadow, instead of you.
4) At 88 you will get access to Stoneskin. When used with Blink, you will easily be able to summon an avatar or spirit.

Elementals seem pretty useless to me (unpredictable cast times, pacts) I only use mine for Siphon.

Their usefulness has increased over the years:
1) They used to cost much much more MP to have out. Now they are practically free, making them good in an emergency.
2) Light spirit is useful if you are expected to cure. It is basically like having a WHM by your side to cure people, or if everyone is full, it will cast buffs (protect, shell, haste, regen).
3) We didn't have elemental siphon for the first ~7 years.
4) Most of them are very cheap, and give you an elemental choice for each element while you are short on avatars. Eg. If you are fighting Goblins and your party occasionally gets wiped by a large Bomb Toss (which is fire-based), you can use water spirit and it will take hardly any damage, and give the goblin something else to hit instead of you (as long as you don't get hit by bomb toss yourself).

Another thing I noticed is that the SMN job seems unfinished/half-baked. I don't know what it is but I just feels that way.
Maybe it's the lack of job related equipment at lower lvls (and higher) or maybe it's the lack of blood pacts.

At you currentl level, a mix of Austere/Penance gear (dependant on your budget) and Artifact gear should suffice. Also if you have some level 99 friends, try to get a pair of Carbuncles Mitts (these mitts will also help you in the mini-avatar fights).

I also see no benefit to using SMN as a sub job other than higher MP but again I'm probably wrong.

Many years ago, every WHM worth his/her salt used SMN as a SJ for extra MP, and the auto-refresh job trait. When Scholar was released, most went across to that instead, and since lvl 80+ was released, most use RDM sub for refresh and convert (some still use SCH). Now, however you are correct. Noone uses /SMN any more except in some very small niches (BRD/SMN in neo-nyzul isle, for example).

Overall I believe the devs are looking not so much to balance the jobs with one another but rather create a need for them. Similar to the job systems in FPS like Battlefield where medics heal and revive, engineers fix equipment.. ect. However, personally I think that they are going about it all wrong. Instead of making Job specific quests/missions they should focus on how each job fits in a party situation. EX. WHM are expected to heal, BLM are expected to weaken/slow and bomb, Warriors are expected to deal damage etc. I think SMN should fit in this party role as a little bit of everything depending on the Avatar. Essentially when I think Summons I think FF7, think phoenix down, Knights of the round, bahamut(sic).

This is generally exactly where SMN fits in right now. We were only used for Alexander and Perfect Defense. However we do have a couple of useful buffs and de-buffs. The new SP ability will increase our appeal somewhat in August too.

So far I like the game (3 weeks in) but honestly I feel like I put to much time into SMN atm and wished I had LVL'd some other class first.. now I just gotta see this thru to 99 so I can use this to make my transition to another job easier.

SMN can be a nice first job (it was mine). Benefits of SMN as a first job are:

1) You can level it very cheaply.
2) You can solo mobs higher than yourself fairly easy, making some of the Limit Breaks easier.
3) One of the easiest Maat fights in the game (especially if you solo'd the lvl 20 avatar fights).

**On a side note.. I wish SMN didn't have to use staffs.. pretty much every other game I play the summoner gets to use at least a dagger. This is just my personal opinion though.

Firstly, SMN can use some of the daggers, and gets an MP restoring WS with those daggers quite early on (though it doesn't deal any damage). Secondly, keep up with your staff skill. With capped staff skill at level 66, you can use a Weapon Skill called Spirit Taker. This deals damage to the mob, and transfers an amount of MP equivalent to the damage dealt, back to your MP pool. Very nice.

[Karbuncle]

That Elvaan is new to this game and even he can see SMN Is one of the most underused, underappreciated, Fake-WHM sh*t stains of a job in FFXI. He's basically nailed every single flaw with the job. sh*tty Damage potential, restricted 45 second BP timer, Completely unable to buff them, Elementals Suck, the job is halfbaked at best and designed for a Era of content around RoTZ and was never updated to be more useful when the content design flow changed...

And yet this fact is entirely lost on the Dev team.

I'm speechless... It just infuriates me more knowing someone whos been in the game only long enough to get to level 60 can spot and point out every single reason the job sucks... and these points are completely lost to the development team.

Edit: Just to let you know, nothing changes when you hit 99. Avatars are still so pathetic I can out dmg them as SMN/WHM Meleeing with a staff... no I'm not joking I've done it more times than i can count, and You're still not invited to anything. The one thing we were useful for, Perfect Defense, has faded into obscurity since over the course of the last few years, the only update SMN has got is a Nerf to their 1 single useful bloodpact.

[Darwyn]

No offense, to the poster who replied with a response to my long paragraph by breaking it down but from my point of view It seems like you're trying to see the positive too hard. Honestly I already knew about the MP boost with SCH and it's benefits so I did take that into account. Being able to use daggers means being able to use them in a useful manner beyond meager MP recoup. That's beside the point here though, Im not trying to be a pessimist but devs for these types of games never listen to the players they "know" more than us and they "know what they are doing". I'm a computer science major myself, most programmers are like that at some point "they know better" than the user. Honestly sometimes I think game devs don't even play games, they should but I doesn't appear so.

Point I get what they are trying to do, they create a need for a certain job so those that haven't lvl'd it go and do it making you lvl multiple jobs is a means to keep you busy and thus paying money. However I think we players like to have choice and that is the fun of MMO's choice. If I want to play as a SMN all the time to every event I should be allowed to by giving me an equal role as other players in my party. In the end after I max out one job and get bored I'm more likely to try another job anyways.

Then again I think it's noticeable that what in most other games would be called a "class" is called a "job" in this game. That alone shows the original and current intent of the roles of "jobs" in the game. A doctor can't build a road so why bring him to the construction zone. That's the idea anyway.. A horrible horrible idea.