What will become of Red Mage v1.0?

[OmnysValefor]

For back lines RDM has little to offer anymore besides Enfeebling, which is good enough to get us in a party and keep us there

No, you have plenty to offer.

You are good healers
You are good at enhancing magic, and accomodate both whm and sch subs pretty well.
You are the best enfeeblers. You, obviously, have access to the most potent enhancing magic in the game.
You are good nukers for when you wanna play around with excess mp.
Refresh II + Composure / Convert gives you great sustainability.

WHM are great healers, the best.
Good at enhancing magic,.
Decent at enfeebling, slightly lacking in both skill, and obvious magics. Accomodates sch sub well and rdm sub alright.
Nuking? Lol holy2.
AF3+2 pants increase its sustainability but it probably has the least.

SCH very good healers, potent regens, competitive with whm for healing and top-notch for reducing damage (stoneskin, phalanx, weather, barspells).
Great at enhancing magic, accomodates rdm sub the best, but only because whm sub has little to offer it, neither does blm sub.
Good at enfeebling.
The best capacity for nuking any healer has, but, of course, it comes at the expense of stratagems, and Arts on 1 min cds. Not a huge cost, but a cost.
Sublimation and proper use of stratagems making costly spells cheap, give it top-not sustainability. An sch played greatly is an amazing thing, but if you don't know what you're doing, you're going to be with a sublimations-breath of oom pretty fast.

BLM, why not.
Heals for crap, and slow, needing whm or rdm sub to even be worth mentioning.
Enfeebles well.
Good nukers.
No sustainability.

Each mage is good at things and bad at things. You're not the best healer, but sometimes your potent enfeebling is what saves the group. You're not "worse", you approach the group from a different perspective.

WHM is a reactionary healer, sch is a preemptive healer, RDM is a little of both. Doesn't make it less.

[Duelle]

For back lines RDM has little to offer anymore besides Enfeebling, which is good enough to get us in a party and keep us there, people have been shouting for them lately which makes me feel more welcome in a party than any other time in the last... I don't know... 2 or 3 years. What I am trying to say is we are in a better place, not a good place, and this subject I can not really see as an attempt to help RDM in an Alliance setting, but rather a low man setting, which is not to be ignored but he is right we are doing the best we have done in an Alliance for a long while.

I'm well aware that we are in a slightly better place. What bothers me is that to some it seems to be enough, while not looking at where the improvements are coming from. There's a balance between content design and class design. What we got was a tiny spec in the direction of content design and got nothing on the end of class design, yet Mana's convinced we've reached the promised land when we haven't even taken more than the first step. Yes, the devs designing fights keeping enfeebles in mind with small gimmicks a RDM can exploit can be seen as a good thing (again, provided you dim the lights enough), but that's still ways off from calling it a day and declaring Red Mage fixed.

I agree with your other points. It sucks to see our melee side pushed to the wayside, as it happened with our AF3 set. For a job with two aspects the devs tend to lean to one and whatever scraps (:trollface:) are left over go to the other.

There are obviously much bigger problems with RDM, but gear and some QOL stuff would be a nice step forward.

[Demon6324236]

No, you have plenty to offer.

You are good healers
You are good at enhancing magic, and accomodate both whm and sch subs pretty well.
You are the best enfeeblers. You, obviously, have access to the most potent enhancing magic in the game.
You are good nukers for when you wanna play around with excess mp.
Refresh II + Composure / Convert gives you great sustainability.

Healing, WHM and SCH make us look terrible by compare. Enhancing is awesome, but all of our enhancing which is unique is self only, and WHM often gets AoE versions of the same spells, same with SCH and Accession. We have Enfeebling, like I said. We have nuking, which again, BLM and SCH are much better at, if you want a mage who can heal, nuke, and enhance, its SCH. We have Refresh II and Composure with Convert as a backup, but guess what, SCH has the ability to /RDM and lose almost nothing of value, so it has Convert, and Sublimation is almost as strong with a SCH main as Refresh II is if not stronger I believe, so that advantage is robbed unless you mean casting it on other people.

So what makes us stand out again? Enfeebling, thats what gets us parties right now. We get use because Gravity II giving -40 Evasion, finally a use for that spell, and the gimmicks like needing Blind or Paralyzing/Slowing the Pugil who hits with enspells for thousands of damage.

[OmnysValefor]

I'm sorry, he begain talking abot lowman content like skirmish (though he explicitly said he's never been) and I was using lowman as a point of reference.

In lowman content, rdm can heal pretty well.

So what makes us stand out again? Enfeebling, thats what gets us parties right now. We get use because Gravity II giving -40 Evasion, finally a use for that spell, and the gimmicks like needing Blind or Paralyzing/Slowing the Pugil who hits with enspells for thousands of damage.

Omfg. Really? Paralyzing slowing isn't about a gimmick, it's about reducing damage taken. You should be paralyzing / slowing anyway, if it happens to be the gimmick, that's awesome.

Am I the only mage/ninja ever that grinned when my paralyze stopped a firaga IV?

Red mages happen to be able to merit higher potency.

Heck, there's your clue that rdm is not/never was a melee. Show me an rdm-specific merit that is there to enhance your melee?

[Demon6324236]

I'm sorry, he begain talking abot lowman content like skirmish (though he explicitly said he's never been) and I was using lowman as a point of reference.

In lowman content, rdm can heal pretty well.

Yes I did, and yes it can, but in lowman content WHM and SCH still crush RDM. In lowman content a SCH can hit an entire party with Regen V which often gives a ton of help to a healer, since its only 1 party, that covers everyone in the entire event. As for WHM, WHM can throw out free Curaga spells when people are low enough on HP, such as after a large AoE, which makes their MP last a very long time.

Omfg. Really? Paralyzing slowing isn't about a gimmick, it's about reducing damage taken. You should be paralyzing / slowing anyway, if it happens to be the gimmick, that's awesome.

Am I the only mage/ninja ever that grinned when my paralyze stopped a firaga IV?

Never said that was its only use. Do you normally bring a RDM to an event to stop spells with paralyze? No, its an extra bit of help most of the time but your just as happy with a lower potency Paralyze from a WHM you were already bringing. When it comes to some of these mobs like the Pugil it goes from a bonus to a necessity because without it your DDs can run out of shadows from their /NIN to quickly and end up dead. As for gimmicks in general I was mostly meaning the Blind thing, where you cant really kill Tutewehiwehi without it because its Evasion spikes when its not blinded and it gets access to two very powerful TP attacks, but with RDM casting Blind on it and keeping it that way the NM is very easy to hit and not nearly as bad to kill.

Red mages happen to be able to merit higher potency.

As I said, the only reason you bring a RDM now is you need good Enfeebling for some of these mobs, thats it, if you do not need good Enfeebling you do not bother with a RDM. Other than that, our potency at capped MND & INT ratios are not a ton better, yes, they are better, but the difference is not as large as you seem to think. The sad thing is that excluding our AF3+2 body, merit spells, and Saboteur, a WHM, BLM, or SCH with the proper sub-job can do just as well Enfeebling as we can if they have enough MND and INT to go with it. More so SCH than anything because of its wonderful JA which gives it a Magic Accuracy bonus provided you have it merited, which makes up for Enfeebling skill since skill only gives Magic Accuracy in the first place, which makes our higher skill fairly meaningless in reality.

Heck, there's your clue that rdm is not/never was a melee. Show me an rdm-specific merit that is there to enhance your melee?

No need, let me show you a spell called Temper, a spell which gives Double Attack, not Double Cast, not something to do with magic, Double Attack, level 95 spell, can not be cast on others, only yourself. Explain to me how that spell can be misconstrued to be meant for a job which is not meant to melee, I would love to know. I would also love to know why our highest skills in combat are on melee weapons focused on close combat, not something like staff or club which enhance magic. I also want to know why Composure enhances Accuracy as well as Enhancing duration, because if were not meant to melee, we shouldn't need accuracy, it should be magic accuracy right? Only a fool would use RDM's merits as an example when they have been flawed since the dawn of their existence, just like every other job who has to merit spells. Its a subject that has been argued for a long time. Stupid pointless statement, think before you post.

[OmnysValefor]

Yes I did, and yes it can, but in lowman content WHM and SCH still crush RDM. In lowman content a SCH can hit an entire party with Regen V which often gives a ton of help to a healer, since its only 1 party, that covers everyone in the entire event. As for WHM, WHM can throw out free Curaga spells when people are low enough on HP, such as after a large AoE, which makes their MP last a very long time.

Never said that was its only use. Do you normally bring a RDM to an event to stop spells with paralyze? No, its an extra bit of help most of the time but your just as happy with a lower potency Paralyze from a WHM you were already bringing. When it comes to some of these mobs like the Pugil it goes from a bonus to a necessity because without it your DDs can run out of shadows from their /NIN to quickly and end up dead. As for gimmicks in general I was mostly meaning the Blind thing, where you cant really kill Tutewehiwehi without it because its Evasion spikes when its not blinded and it gets access to two very powerful TP attacks, but with RDM casting Blind on it and keeping it that way the NM is very easy to hit and not nearly as bad to kill.

You know what? First thing I think of when I think of is enfeebling magic. It was a shame during Aby/VW's era when enfeebling magic was nearly useless, especially since, several of them were procs too so you shouldn't cast them so that you could cast them when needed.

Anything could tank if they rode drinks and procs were good, and that was proven several times.

So yeah, during VW era, it was a shame that you never saw rdm. Are you a great rdm? I don't know, probably, but several great rdms I knew were never on the job.

I also look at it as assisting healing, refresh II, and--maybe some nukes tossed in. They may not nuke as hard as an sch, or heal as hard as one, but at least the don't suffer the penalties (or benefits) of switching modes.

As I said, the only reason you bring a RDM now is you need good Enfeebling for some of these mobs, thats it, if you do not need good Enfeebling you do not bother with a RDM. Other than that, our potency at capped MND & INT ratios are not a ton better, yes, they are better, but the difference is not as large as you seem to think. The sad thing is that excluding our AF3+2 body, merit spells, and Saboteur, a WHM, BLM, or SCH with the proper sub-job can do just as well Enfeebling as we can if they have enough MND and INT to go with it. More so SCH than anything because of its wonderful JA which gives it a Magic Accuracy bonus provided you have it merited, which makes up for Enfeebling skill since skill only gives Magic Accuracy in the first place, which makes our higher skill fairly meaningless in reality.

I know the tragedy that is /sch, just go into arts and bam, appropriate skills are decent level. Anyone can do anything. Actually, what people are finding out, is their cureboxes and mules and buddy's half-baked jobs can't do it. They can't keep up with the healing, they get resists. They can't dispel. The age of enfeebling kits will matter again, just like it did at 75, as these tiers get harder and harder. Some whms, who are probably also career rdms, will have the gear and macro it in. Most will not. Most of today's blms could barely solo a zhayol pudding now. Adoulin just might be the good player's time to shine. WS kits didn't matter so much in abyssea (razed ruins and win), and later-voidwatch, people didn't care as long as you got White, but even they are now. Proper play, if se keeps on track, might actually matter again but your griping because some offshoot dream for your class is not happening.

No need, let me show you a spell called Temper, a spell which gives Double Attack, not Double Cast, not something to do with magic, Double Attack, level 95 spell, can not be cast on others, only yourself. Explain to me how that spell can be misconstrued to be meant for a job which is not meant to melee, I would love to know.

Temper is a toy. WHM has long-had hexa strike. A very generous weaponskill, and if you look on youtube, you'll find videos of whm soloing many things. I like the vid of the whm soloing shin, myself, but whatever. Rdm is the enfeebler of this game, it is a backup healer and the original, and still useful, accessory nuker. RDMs have always played around with their sword and they finally got that. I don't expect an rdm to be up there meleeing any more than I'd expect a whm. I don't see many whm's crying for more melee power, even though they've had hexa forever, and have realmrazer now. WHMs know their job and they do it.

[Demon6324236]

Temper is a toy.

You wanted to point out RDM had no merits, my point was that no, it has no merits, but it has spells which specifically go with it, you could say NIN has no melee based merits, the closest is Subtle Blow but since that effects ranged attacks and one of its merits are for that, I think it fits more with that category, does that mean NIN is not a melee job? No, its a melee job, merits meant nothing, RDM's are no different, we have 6 spells, 6 potencies, and 1 other merit, the difference with NIN is they have three other merits, it would be like if we got Conserve MP and 1% Fast Cast/Merit as merits.

WHM has long-had hexa strike. A very generous weaponskill, and if you look on youtube, you'll find videos of whm soloing many things. I like the vid of the whm soloing shin, myself, but whatever.

Yes, WHM can do some impressive things melee as well, the difference is that it has special gear for meleeing that is literally JSE, which in all honesty is weird because it puts it as more of a melee job in that respect than RDM is in all honesty. Something else which annoys me since that is a job who is really not meant to melee much, do I still support melee WHMs? Yes, so long as they are still getting their job done they can hit the mob to their hearts content!

Rdm is the enfeebler of this game, it is a backup healer and the original, and still useful, accessory nuker.

Its the Jack of all Trades, thats why it has various mid-ranged skills, instead of just magic skills and a few rogue melee type skills, its also why its on Excalibur, Mandau, Almace, and has a Sword for a Mythic, AF weapon, and its Abyssea weapon. A RDM's weapon is meant to be a melee weapon, a blade or knife of sorts, while it casts magic as well, I am not sure how else to explain it, its written all over the job's main hand.

RDMs have always played around with their sword and they finally got that. I don't expect an rdm to be up there meleeing any more than I'd expect a whm. I don't see many whm's crying for more melee power, even though they've had hexa forever, and have realmrazer now. WHMs know their job and they do it.

I do not expect to melee with RDM all the time either, like I said, mainly low man events are times when a RDM can melee. Go do Neo-Salvage, want an extra DD? Take a RDM, they can heal and DD at the same time, on NMs they can focus on healing and if you have another healer, they can give Refresh for some extra MP. Same goes with Meebles, DD and healer in one, fighting the boss? Have the RDM step back, bosses have high evasion by compare to RDM in there so its often best to stand back and support against them. When doing Alliance content with high amounts of buffs against a hard mob who you will hit low damage on anyways, when Req because a worthless WS and KoR or CDC do not do much better, those are the times when RDM steps back and does nothing but magic or simply does not come at all, and in most cases its the latter.

[ManaKing]

There's a balance between content design and class design.

Yeah, we went from Aby and VW where the content told us to not even bother showing up because we weren't going to be used to Adoulin, where they changed the entire content to encourage us to use our natural strengths while severely limiting most other jobs in the game because they lacked personal toughness and survivability. All of our enfeebles land again and some mobs take extra damage from both nukes and enspells. That is QOL.

It's not enough that we were to get ahead from being behind, it was also that almost everyone else realized how squishy and fragile they were. That has all happened and you guy are asking for more.

You don't know how to say thank you or even realize that you should. Your mentality seems to be: If they didn't hand RDM something specific, then it wasn't for us and it doesn't count. But in fact, RDM became more powerful from game wide adjustments that undid a lot of the raw deals that RDM had been putting up with since abyssea came out.

Enfeebles no longer land to no effect. Immunobreak tells us if a mob is completely resistant to an enfeeble. Healing adjustments. Easy Cure Potency gear. Req is MND based. Defense matters for the first time probably ever and lowering mobs defense is more attractive. Broken good swords not just for main hand, but also for offhand that have attack, accuracy, STR, and rival Prestige weapons. Also, our Mythic might become very powerful after the hypothetical adjustments. Mobs take extra damage from all forms of magical damage. Coming soon is adjustments to 1h weapons attribute contributions and a general buff to nuking.

And the biggest QOL adjustment, NO MORE LEVEL CORRECTION. Maybe you realize how important that is for RDM or maybe you don't actually play your RDM.

[Zeargi]

Overall, My major gripes with the faults of RDM is the fact that it's missing quite a few spells that it SHOULD have: Banish I, II, Flash, Holy, Drain, Aspir. The En-II spells suck horrible and should be treated like the COR's Card Shots; drastically increasing the effects of the elemental debuffs and the success rate of enfeebling spells of landing. If it's an enfeebler then it should have spells of the GEO which lower Physical/Magic ACC, ATT, DEF, & EVA, as well as Amnesia. It's merits need to be serious looked at. RDM should also have access to ALL Sword and Dagger WS. (Same way I felt that PUP should have access to all the H2H that were non-mythic). Access to the same DD armors at BLU gets would be fair. RDM is falling but by no means is RUN a close replace to RDM. RDM can still run circle around RUN. But RDM is still far from what it should be. Should it be better at DD than NIN, DNC, THF, SAM, MNK, DRK, or DRG... No, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't see an increase of what it can do to fill in for one of those roles if they aren't there or currently needed else where. The other problem RDM faces is the player-base... Of course these are just my opinions.

[tyrantsyn]

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See's walls of text.

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