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  1. #91
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Oct 2012
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    Not saying it can't happen, because anything can, but I never had such bad luck on t2-T3. Do your t1-t2 in one of the starter aby zones. It's ridiculous to fight a T1 in the upper-tier zones. I'd actually say those elemental t1's are harder than Shiva, Garuda and Titan.

    I have definitely gone 0/20+ (maybe 30) on t1->t2.

    I think my worst stretch was 0/8? I kept at it and I can't understand how people can want to be a pld, but not put in the effort.
    (0)

  2. #92
    Player Alerith's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    282
    Character
    Alerith
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by OmnysValefor View Post
    Not saying it can't happen, because anything can, but I never had such bad luck on t2-T3. Do your t1-t2 in one of the starter aby zones. It's ridiculous to fight a T1 in the upper-tier zones. I'd actually say those elemental t1's are harder than Shiva, Garuda and Titan.

    I have definitely gone 0/20+ (maybe 30) on t1->t2.

    I think my worst stretch was 0/8? I kept at it and I can't understand how people can want to be a pld, but not put in the effort.
    Correct. Never, EVER, do T1>T2 in anything other than Konschtat or La Thiene.

    Even so, T2>T3 is where the issue stands, as people have and do go 0/20+ on changes and that's assuming they can get the NM that isn't be camped by seal farmers and other shield/harp builders.

    You're viewing it as a lack of effort, but a player only has so much control when the mobs are limited in number, on longer than average respawns and have to compete with seal hunters who don't care to cooperate. Hell, it's actually because the abyssite has such a crappy drop rate that seal farming the NMs repeatedly in one trip is even possible. An increase in change rate of abyssite would even out the competition balance a bit unless intentionally circumnavigated.
    (7)

  3. #93
    Player Yinnyth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    839
    Character
    Yinnyth
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Alerith View Post
    It's not an issue of effort, nor skill or anything else under the players control. When you have someone willing to sit out in Uleguerand or Grauberg or Altepa for an extended period of time and go 0/30 on abyssite changes, then the player cannot be held at fault as they have no control over RNG or luck.
    It is, in theory, possible that anytime you have such systems which rely on luck that you can do thousands and thousands and thousands of kills and not tier up. If 0/30 is for real, and it is the highest recorded string of bad luck, then the tierup chance may not be that bad. Having done daurdabla myself, my average tierup rate on t1>t2 was about 1 in 8 (highest was 18 kills). My average tierup rate on t2>t3 was about 1 in 3 (highest was 7).

    Will there be some people less lucky than me? Yes, though my friends who have also completed daurdabla commented on how remarkably bad my tierup rates were, so it appears that my luck was worse than average as well. You must also take into account there are people who will quite willingly exaggerate how bad their luck is because it's very appealing in our culture to be a victim. Stop indulging these people who pretend to be a victim and look at the actual average rates.

    Regardless 0/30 is far from the average.
    (2)

  4. #94
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Oct 2012
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    With all due respect, I think you underestimate people's ability to give up on anything remotely not-easy.

    As I said (days ago) in the shields thread, the same people wanting easier to obtain ochain also are the same ones usually in 5/5 creed and 2% dark rings. Yeah I've seen DT capped paladins in Seignuer's and Steadfast, but it's usually not the case.

    A lot of people just want things given to them.

    According to FFXIAH, there are as many Ochains as there are Twashtars, and 2/3 as many as there are Almaces and Veres.

    Edit: Math and reading. There are 863 (active?) twashtars. There are 1228 Ochains. There are 1400+ 85 Ochains (done with vnm) (those 1400 include the 1228 90s. I'm not trying to be confusing, that's how FFXIAH displays it).

    Half as many Ochains as Kannagis, and this is a tool that was useful to a useless job.

    Edit: I'm curious. Was the 0/30 your stretch or something someone said on forums?

    I went 1/20 on Joyeuse back in the day! >.>
    (1)
    Last edited by OmnysValefor; 06-08-2013 at 02:42 PM.

  5. #95
    Player Alerith's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    282
    Character
    Alerith
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Yinnyth View Post
    It is, in theory, possible that anytime you have such systems which rely on luck that you can do thousands and thousands and thousands of kills and not tier up. If 0/30 is for real, and it is the highest recorded string of bad luck, then the tierup chance may not be that bad. Having done daurdabla myself, my average tierup rate on t1>t2 was about 1 in 8 (highest was 18 kills). My average tierup rate on t2>t3 was about 1 in 3 (highest was 7).

    Will there be some people less lucky than me? Yes, though my friends who have also completed daurdabla commented on how remarkably bad my tierup rates were, so it appears that my luck was worse than average as well. You must also take into account there are people who will quite willingly exaggerate how bad their luck is because it's very appealing in our culture to be a victim. Stop indulging these people who pretend to be a victim and look at the actual average rates.

    Regardless 0/30 is far from the average.
    But it is the very possibility of such things that I am referring to. 0/30 may not be an average, but it is a likely possibility. You can also, in theory, go 1/1 on every single abyssite change and get 2/2 souls on every T3 drop. (If the system is truly RNG and we consider absolute asinine luck.)

    Just because Player A goes 0/30 and Player B goes 1/1 certainly does not make the system bad. If it was simply left like this without any other factors, and was strictly abyssite changes, then that is one thing.

    But you must upgrade the abyssite twice, on two NMs (one of each tier), one of which is on a fifteen minute respawn and a very realistic possibility that your abyssite WON'T change.

    But what I'm saying is that if you don't want to change abyssite drop rates any further, than change the respawn times on the VNMs, add more of them or have souls drop off T3s in the other areas as well.

    The issue is the bottleneck caused by the RNG due to the very limited number of NMs and their extended respawns. Fix the number of NMs, the respawns or the NMs that souls drop from and the abyssite change issue becomes a LOT less relevant.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by OmnysValefor View Post
    Edit: I'm curious. Was the 0/30 your stretch or something someone said on forums?
    0/30 was indeed a stretch of my own, evenly split between Chione and Koios. (So if you would prefer, 0/15, 1/16 with the same abyssite.)
    (2)
    Last edited by Alerith; 06-08-2013 at 02:51 PM.

  6. #96
    Player Yinnyth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Yinnyth
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Alerith View Post
    But it is the very possibility of such things that I am referring to. 0/30 may not be an average, but it is a likely possibility. You can also, in theory, go 1/1 on every single abyssite change and get 2/2 souls on every T3 drop. (If the system is truly RNG and we consider absolute asinine luck.)
    I believe our definitions of "likely" are vastly different. 0/30 on a t2>t3 upgrade is not likely by my definition.
    But you must upgrade the abyssite twice, on two NMs (one of each tier), one of which is on a fifteen minute respawn and a very realistic possibility that your abyssite WON'T change.
    The T1s are on a respawn timer which is difficult to accurately judge, but appears to be somewhere in the range of 1-5 minutes. The T2s are on a 10-15 minute timer, and I can confirm several cases in which koios spawned 10 minutes after his death. The T3s are on a 15-20 minute timer, but you don't need an upgrade from them, so that's obviously not what you're talking about. No, you're talking worst-case-scenario for T2 as though that's the norm. Just like you wave around this 1/31 record as though it's the norm.

    But what I'm saying is that if you don't want to change abyssite drop rates any further, than change the respawn times on the VNMs, add more of them or have souls drop off T3s in the other areas as well.
    The end result is the same: trials become easier. You don't care how they make them easier as long as they make them easier. Heck, even if they do make them easier, we'll probably still see posts from other people complaining that they're still not easy enough. At what point should the line be drawn?

    0/30 was indeed a stretch of my own, evenly split between Chione and Koios. (So if you would prefer, 0/15, 1/16 with the same abyssite.)
    A neat split of 0/15 on one, then 0/15 on another? What are the odds? Such an even number, such an even split between the two zones. Surely, you must be able to understand my doubt when you make such claims. Have you any proof? How did you keep count? Is there anyone who was with you for these kills who can confirm that you indeed went 1/31? Or did you just pull 0/30 out of thin air, then decide to defend this number to the best of your ability because no one has the ability to prove that you're lying when you claim it happened to you? Just like you can't prove I wasn't abducted by aliens who look like Tony the Tiger, but you have darned good reason to doubt I'm telling the truth if I say I was.

    I'm not saying 0/30 is impossible. Even if the abyssite had a 99.99% chance to upgrade, there is a tiny tiny chance that you could still go 0/30. But the upgrade chance for T2>T3 appears to be somewhere around 25%. Assuming a 25% chance on tierup, your odds of going 0/30 are roughly 0.017858209%.
    (1)

  7. #97
    Player Tsukino_Kaji's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    4,029
    Character
    Tsukinokaji
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Okipuit View Post
    In a previous version update, we did increase the rate at which Abyssite upgrades and there are no further plans to adjust this system.
    Tell them to check the numbers again, because they're either lying or did something wrong. People are still spending hours upon hours just to get it to change from T1 to T2. If it realy was "fixed," then people shouldn't be going 100+ kills of T1s to get an upgrade.
    (8)

  8. #98
    Player OmnysValefor's Avatar
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    Oct 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmnysValefor View Post
    According to FFXIAH, there are as many Ochains as there are Twashtars, and 2/3 as many as there are Almaces and Veres.

    Edit: Math and reading. There are 863 (active?) twashtars. There are 1228 Ochains. There are 1400+ 85 Ochains (done with vnm) (those 1400 include the 1228 90s. I'm not trying to be confusing, that's how FFXIAH displays it).
    Shamelessly quoting myself.

    It occurred to me last night that there's the SE Census data.

    As of the 2012 census, there were 9600 Veres, 4200 Twashtars, 8000 Almaces, 3100 Caladbolgs, 1000 Farshas, 7000 Ukons, 850 Scythes and Polearms, 15000 kannagis, 5800 masas, 800 clubs, 800 Staves, 2800 bows, 5700 guns.

    There were also 700 harps* and 4200 Ochains*.

    In the case of weapons, I subtracted the 80 version from the total.

    In the case of shields/harps, I did the same. So yeah, I counted 85 Ochain, but 85 Ochain has finished the VNM. This data is a year old and Ochain has fine representation in the population. I'm a bit shocked harp is so low. But here, again, it shows that there are as many Ochains (vnm finished) as there are twashtars.

    Again, this is the representation when noone was using PLDs for much of anything.

    Source
    (0)
    Last edited by OmnysValefor; 06-09-2013 at 02:24 AM.

  9. #99
    Player Zuidar's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    247
    Character
    Zuidar
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Okipuit View Post
    We understand that the system is difficult but the rewards such as Ochain and Daurdabla are on an equal level. In a previous version update, we did increase the rate at which Abyssite upgrades and there are no further plans to adjust this system.
    would be better to adjust it so red procing would definitely give upgrade to T3. As with other Empyrean weapons that has items with other NMs you get KIs from procing red, this would make sense in abyssea for VNMs to follow the same rule when you proc red
    (7)

  10. #100
    Player svengalis's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    888
    Character
    Jakarai
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Zagen View Post
    Let's take a look at Great Katana Trials for example and being very lucky:

    Vuu Puqu the Beguiler 3 hours
    Buburimboo 3 hours
    Zo'Khu Blackcloud 3 hours
    Seww the Squidlimbed 4 hours
    Ankabut 6 hours
    Okyupete 4 hours
    Urd 3 hours and (assumes you can pop and kill each one in 10 minutes)
    Lamprey Lord 3 hours and (assumes you can pop and kill each one in 10 minutes)
    Chesma 4 hours & 20 minutes (assumes you can pop and kill each one in 10 minutes)

    By my count: 33 hours and 20 minutes
    Even if you discount kill time on the VNMs: 30 hours.

    Either that 24 hours isn't 24 hours straight or I'm missing something...
    may have been bit of an exaggeration but i got all the timed NM within an hour of each, think you can force it somewhat and did the vnm right after.
    (0)
    it's what you learn after you know it all that counts

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