Summoner in Colonization Reives = Broken

[Malphius]

I really don't want to be mean to you, Malphius, but a WHM complaining about SMN stealing your thunder in one event is really infuriating. It's like a millionaire complaining about homeless people getting free food at the soup kitchen.

You have so many events that you're wanted for. SMN is not nearly as lucky. If you look up niche in the dictionary you'd likely see a one-horned taru standing alongside Carbuncle. You find one event where a SMN can do better than your WHM, and you've got your pantaloons in a wad over it. You have a glimpse of the SMN's world where everyone is better than us for darn near everything.

If you don't like it, try adapting. Come as a job that can score a ton of points, or try playing your WHM in a more effective way. That's what SMNs have done over the years. We main healed or we came different jobs.

You can also ask for improvements to the way your job is handled in Reives. I don't recall SMNs ever asking for others to be nerfed so that they could shine. Why don't you do them the same honor?

Please speak your mind. I would like to hear a rational argument for this not to be fixed which is the only reason i'm still at it. So far people are only speaking out of emotion and personal preference.

WHM isn't my only job. I have several and any of them I could come on but at the moment if this becomes a trend which I believe it will, I would not be coming on any mage job. My persistence in this is because it alienates an entire job class to a high value event. Wildkeeper Reives cost 100k. That's not easy to accumulate.

I also think you are under valuing SMN's worth. Perfect Defense alone makes several of them necessary to some of the best events in the game. Legion and Odin 2.0 being a couple. SMN is also always wanted for Voidwatch so i'm not sure what events SMN is being excluded from.

Why should an entire job class adapt to an unfair advantage of one job in one event? I'm not advocating a SMN nerf. I'm advocating a change in the event dynamics of Colonization Reives. I'm asking that SMN perform normally. Every job in the game performs exactly the same way in Reives as they do every where else in the game with the exception of SMN.

If SMN's want to do themselves an honor then they should rationally explain why they should be given this preferential treatment over everyone else? This has nothing to do with your satisfaction of SMN as a job or as a whole. I know that most SMN are very unhappy with their current state of affairs. However this is not a reason to expect or demand preferential treatment at the expense of others. So far all I see from SMN's is a sense of entitlement.

[Thundarian]

Summoner is capable of getting good to great bayld gain in reive's currently ONLY if they are spamming healing bloodpacts every 45 seconds and ONLY if those heals are all healing for close to their full potential. Is this unbalanced? Potentially. Is nerfing this going to fix any problems? No.

Why you ask? Well for one, this would screw over the summoner massively. If you try a summoner and go through a reive only throwing buffs / debuffs every 45 seconds (we are assuming an offensive BP on CD on roots or a mob every 45 in either situation) you are going to make trash bayld. There is little to not bayld gain for anything but doing effective healing for a summoner, which is why you see them doing it. They are forced to for ANY bayld gain.

Secondly, you would probably screw over reive's in their current state. A lot of the time the only way everyone is getting enough heals in basaalt fields when two turtles end up spinning on top of each other near the whole group, is if summoners are getting heals off. Lets face it, targeting in this game is archaic at best, and when you put 40 people in a tight space, not everyone is going to have a party, and as a healer you aren't going to bother trying to heal the people not in your party. People are going to die. No one is going to be happy.

Basically what I'm saying is you haven't offered a decent solution. Colonization reive's aren't Odin2 or Legion. They don't seem to be designed with the idea of being forced to put together an organized group, though you certainly can. Saying summoner would be fine if you changed reive's to be like those events is wrong. I don't get the option of targeting my heals / buffs on another party / group. Sucks, but that is how it is.

Finally for an example of how bad bayld gain is, doing a nakuul the other day (yay plenty of bayld to do nakuuls which drop no summoner gear because there is no summoner gear to spend bayld on) keeping up pet buffs / debuffs in a rotation on a large group of people and using off BP's, I made about 8k bayld over the course of the hourish long fight. My dps friend made closer to 20k (keep in mind for the last 20% I went back to healing / status removal to get up to the 8k). If I had been healing the entire time instead of attempting to contribute useful buffs / debuffs, I would have been closer to the 20-25k people are reporting are possible.

TLDR: tried to do useful job things my job seems designed to do, got screwed on bayld. Nerfing the one useful thing I can do to get bayld not the solution to the problem you are having.

[RAIST]

The problem isn't that SMN is getting lots of XP by AOE healing people, it's that the WHM is just trying to get points ONLY from curing--and is only maximizing one aspect of it. On the other hand, the SMN is likely thwacking things with a stick, using offensive BP's, potentially taking some collateral damage from the AOE's and recovering that HP (at least, that's what I do). Compare that to the WHM who may very well be basically idle except for curing. It's very much like it was in campaign (I used to love to go /SAM and just smack the crap out of mobs for sh!ts and giggles...good times). You have to work for it if you want to get more out of it on mage jobs.

Out of curiosity, I changed my main to my gimped WHM and run out to fart around in Ceizak with a pair of toothpicks. Didn't cure a single person at all, didn't even cure myself (just kept Regen4 up). When all I did was beat stuff and take virtually no damage, was getting around 800 a pop. If I got more aggressive, made a few chains, enfeebled/nuked a little (well, as best a WHM can nuke in mediocre gear)...I got upwards of 1200 a pop, up to 2250 on one. Granted, I am geared more appropriatley for smacking skels in a KRT burn and this was with a pack of about 20 people ripping through them like locusts...but I only faired about twice as well when I was doing them on MNK in the same way, likely because I was simply able to dish out more damage, grab more hate, and take a much more thorough beating on that job.

So, in short....it sounds more like the problem isn't that SMN has found it's way to make up to 5k a pop on reives, it's more that the WHM's haven't found their way yet, but the potential may well be there if they put forth the effort.

[Malphius]

Summoner is capable of getting good to great bayld gain in reive's currently ONLY if they are spamming healing bloodpacts every 45 seconds and ONLY if those heals are all healing for close to their full potential. Is this unbalanced? Potentially. Is nerfing this going to fix any problems? No.

Why you ask? Well for one, this would screw over the summoner massively. If you try a summoner and go through a reive only throwing buffs / debuffs every 45 seconds (we are assuming an offensive BP on CD on roots or a mob every 45 in either situation) you are going to make trash bayld. There is little to not bayld gain for anything but doing effective healing for a summoner, which is why you see them doing it. They are forced to for ANY bayld gain.

Secondly, you would probably screw over reive's in their current state. A lot of the time the only way everyone is getting enough heals in basaalt fields when two turtles end up spinning on top of each other near the whole group, is if summoners are getting heals off. Lets face it, targeting in this game is archaic at best, and when you put 40 people in a tight space, not everyone is going to have a party, and as a healer you aren't going to bother trying to heal the people not in your party. People are going to die. No one is going to be happy.

Basically what I'm saying is you haven't offered a decent solution. Colonization reive's aren't Odin2 or Legion. They don't seem to be designed with the idea of being forced to put together an organized group, though you certainly can. Saying summoner would be fine if you changed reive's to be like those events is wrong. I don't get the option of targeting my heals / buffs on another party / group. Sucks, but that is how it is.

Finally for an example of how bad bayld gain is, doing a nakuul the other day (yay plenty of bayld to do nakuuls which drop no summoner gear because there is no summoner gear to spend bayld on) keeping up pet buffs / debuffs in a rotation on a large group of people and using off BP's, I made about 8k bayld over the course of the hourish long fight. My dps friend made closer to 20k (keep in mind for the last 20% I went back to healing / status removal to get up to the 8k). If I had been healing the entire time instead of attempting to contribute useful buffs / debuffs, I would have been closer to the 20-25k people are reporting are possible.

TLDR: tried to do useful job things my job seems designed to do, got screwed on bayld. Nerfing the one useful thing I can do to get bayld not the solution to the problem you are having.

Yes but your advantage still comes at the expense of others, a point that nobody is willing to face or acknowledge. I also don't believe that putting SMN into a party restriction for BP's will greatly reduce their Bayld. If support classes aren't getting appropriate points for buffing and performing their jobs as intended then this is another area SE needs to visit for adjustment. SMN does have the ability to spot cure however using their subjob. Cure 4 produces very generous numbers since the Healing Magic update. I would also be curious to see how a Light Spirit would react. I don't believe the argument that SMN wouldn't be able to function or get points with out this special ability.

I entirely agree that this is nothing like Odin or Legion and that wasn't my point. I was pointing out to the other poster that SMN IS very wanted for a variety of events. She claimed otherwise. I am not advocating also that they be changed to be like those events. I'm saying they need put in their natural state. Should PLD get 100% Invincible since they need to hold mobs? Should DD get Regain since they need to kill mobs? Nobody should have any special advantage.

Saying that you don't have the ability to target other parties with heals is a bit disingenuous. While you cannot target outside parties using your avatars neither can I target an outside party with Curaga or Protectra or Shellra or any of my AoE abilities. I have to do it the same way you would by using Accession. We would be on exactly the same playing field.

If you want me to propose a solution it is this.

It is obviously my stance that no one job be given an exception to it's play mechanics for any certain event. I doubt I will relent from this position. I've already stated several times why. I would take this stance regardless of what job it is. This is not an attack on SMN but an attack on the way Reives has been designed. My thread title is a tad inflammatory I realize now but it is what it is. It's still broken in this event.

If SMN is incapible of earning points by performing their job normally then this is obviously an area that SE needs to address.

I will say i've noticed a very low incentive factor for buffing those around you. It seems that the only way a mage can earn points in Reives is to cure for big numbers. You actually have more incentive to NOT buff as this will result in more opportunities to cure. I have noticed this with BLM and nukes as well. Point accumulation is still highly unbalanced. I do believe that SE needs to re-address this and I would like a response from the community reps around it.

That does not change my position that SMN needs to be operating in it's natural state as it's making for an unbalanced event.

[Malphius]

The problem isn't that SMN is getting lots of XP by AOE healing people, it's that the WHM is just trying to get points ONLY from curing--and is only maximizing one aspect of it. On the other hand, the SMN is likely thwacking things with a stick, using offensive BP's, potentially taking some collateral damage from the AOE's and recovering that HP (at least, that's what I do). Compare that to the WHM who may very well be basically idle except for curing. It's very much like it was in campaign (I used to love to go /SAM and just smack the crap out of mobs for sh!ts and giggles...good times). You have to work for it if you want to get more out of it on mage jobs.

Out of curiosity, I changed my main to my gimped WHM and run out to fart around in Ceizak with a pair of toothpicks. Didn't cure a single person at all, didn't even cure myself (just kept Regen4 up). When all I did was beat stuff and take virtually no damage, was getting around 800 a pop. If I got more aggressive, made a few chains, enfeebled/nuked a little (well, as best a WHM can nuke in mediocre gear)...I got upwards of 1200 a pop, up to 2250 on one. Granted, I am geared more appropriatley for smacking skels in a KRT burn and this was with a pack of about 20 people ripping through them like locusts...but I only faired about twice as well when I was doing them on MNK in the same way, likely because I was simply able to dish out more damage, grab more hate, and take a much more thorough beating on that job.

So, in short....it sounds more like the problem isn't that SMN has found it's way to make up to 5k a pop on reives, it's more that the WHM's haven't found their way yet, but the potential may well be there if they put forth the effort.

It has never been about SMN's ability to make good points, it's in the side effect of eliminating the roll of other support class jobs. I don't care how many points SMN makes. It has nothing to do with jealousy and it has nothing to do with WHM. I never brought up WHM once. Someone saw that WHM is my main job and brought it into the topic. I go SCH,DRG,MNK,SAM,WHM to reives. It's irreverent.

Regardless of what job someone comes on to an event they should be able to serve their intended function. Once you have a couple SMN at a Reive they eliminate the function of all other support jobs. I doubt WHM, BRD or SCH go to Reives with the intention of meleeing. I for sure don't. I would go on any number of DD jobs I have.

[RAIST]

It has never been about SMN's ability to make good points, it's in the side effect of eliminating the roll of other support class jobs. I don't care how many points SMN makes. It has nothing to do with jealousy and it has nothing to do with WHM. I never brought up WHM once. Someone saw that WHM is my main job and brought it into the topic. I go SCH,DRG,MNK,SAM,WHM to reives. It's irreverent.

Regardless of what job someone comes on to an event they should be able to serve their intended function. Once you have a couple SMN at a Reive they eliminate the function of all other support jobs. I doubt WHM, BRD or SCH go to Reives with the intention of meleeing. I for sure don't. I would go on any number of DD jobs I have.

If you truly are going on a DD, then you may need to revamp your tactics a little? I had no issues getting xp on SAM and MNK, regardless of how many SMN were present...and I don't have an R/M/E for them....just magian weapons.

As for the mage jobs....if any of them dealt with the campaign issues way back when and bothered to develop a strategy to counter the issues then, they should already know what to do. One could assume they would revert to those tactics again...if they don't, that is their choice I guess. For those who have no such experience, or never built a new strategy...perhaps now may be a good time to work on that?

{Edit:}
In roughly 1 hour... from about 14:00 Windsday to 20:00 iceday, got a full merit (well, actually 9045, but who's counting?) running around with a big group smacking things on WHM almost entirely as a battle mage weilding 2 toothpicks...only cured other people like 3 times in battle, myself maybe a dozen times tops. All other cures were done before/after to top people up (hit 371 healing magic...really need to sit down one afternoon and cap that I guess). Those SMN's were REALLY cramping my style.....back to MNK again, see if I can skill Guard some more.

[Malphius]

If you truly are going on a DD, then you may need to revamp your tactics a little? I had no issues getting xp on SAM and MNK, regardless of how many SMN were present...and I don't have an R/M/E for them....just magian weapons.

As for the mage jobs....if any of them dealt with the campaign issues way back when and bothered to develop a strategy to counter the issues then, they should already know what to do. One could assume they would revert to those tactics again...if they don't, that is their choice I guess. For those who have no such experience, or never built a new strategy...perhaps now may be a good time to work on that?

I have no issues getting points or Bayld on DD jobs. The topic at hand is that the event is unbalanced in a number of ways and 1 job getting special exception to game mechanics for said event can lead to exclusion of intended function of similar jobs.

[Aezelas]

I don't believe the argument that SMN wouldn't be able to function or get points with out this special ability.

Believe it. Aside from healing BPs, SMN doesn't get any baylds.
I've done some reives trying buffs BPs only (such as haste, stoneskin, enspells or fenrir's stats), i got nothing.

You said we could still use our avatars offensively. We still get no baylds. SMNs have been complaining enough for offensive BPs lack of power.
Forgetting about dealing damage with BPs only, I tried hitting on a root with a staff, double attack gear and Ifrit's favor. Shitty baylds again.

Healing BP is all we have. And it's not as easy as you make it sound, because we have to compete against other healers and smn.
You said your gain dropped down as soon as smns appeared in the event. I have exactly the same thoughts when i see a bunch of whm joining. It's a two way street.

I wish SMN could operate in its natural state. The deal is SMN natural state blows, and we're deperately waiting for SE to fix it.
Until then, we finally found something we can get benefit from. But i hear ya, i guess SMN hasn't been nerfed enough so far.

Speaking of unbalanced event, could you even name 1 or 2 events in the whole game balanced for SMN?

[Malphius]

Believe it. Aside from healing BPs, SMN doesn't get any baylds.
I've done some reives trying buffs BPs only (such as haste, stoneskin, enspells or fenrir's stats), i got nothing.

You said we could still use our avatars offensively. We still get no baylds. SMNs have been complaining enough for offensive BPs lack of power.
Forgetting about dealing damage with BPs only, I tried hitting on a root with a staff, double attack gear and Ifrit's favor. Shitty baylds again.

Healing BP is all we have. And it's not as easy as you make it sound, because we have to compete against other healers and smn.
You said your gain dropped down as soon as smns appeared in the event. I have exactly the same thoughts when i see a bunch of whm joining. It's a two way street.

I wish SMN could operate in its natural state. The deal is SMN natural state blows, and we're deperately waiting for SE to fix it.
Until then, we finally found something we can get benefit from. But i hear ya, i guess SMN hasn't been nerfed enough so far.

Speaking of unbalanced event, could you even name 1 or 2 events in the whole game balanced for SMN?

Legion, Odin 2.0, Voidwatch, abyssea solos.

[Thundarian]

Telling me that you don't believe that putting a party restriction on summoner would make them worthless means nothing. As someone who only plays summoner at the moment, and is very interested in the numbers, and has tried most things under the sun to see what would result in good bayld gain, I can tell you that putting a party restriction without massive changes to how bayld is calculated would force you to not take summoner to reive's.

Telling me to use my subjob is silly. You are basically arguing to not come as a summoner, because if all I'm getting points for is curing as my subjob, then why not just come as WHM or SCH main for bigger better heals? Also light spirit does essentially nothing. Tried a few reive's using only it, in buffing / healing mode, and it cast maybe one heal on someone else, and threw a few protect / shell 5's, and as far as I could tell, I received no bayld / xp for it doing anything.

Your thread is very inflammatory considering the current feeling of summoners on the board, which is why you got angry responses from some people :P The problem is to fix the issue you are having, other large problems must be fixed first. Until those are fixed, simply changing the function of summoner in reive's removes them completely from the content.

On top of all that, I will add that while you may not think it is balanced, I think being able to buff everyone with blood pacts is fun. It is not fun to not be able to target people outside your party with your abilities. I think making it easier to use your beneficial abilities on all allies is a step in the right direction, and the game should be moved to be 'balanced' more around that. I understand the game is archaic and has limitations, but steps should be made to mitigate those instead of accepting them and moving on.