Summoner in Colonization Reives = Broken

[Babekeke]

When I do Reives on my pink DNC, big boys come along and kill the mob that I've been fighting for 5 mins and got down to 90%HP. Thus meaning I don't get as many points. Can we make it so that noone else can touch my mob please so I can get more points?

An inaccurate analogy. If your pink DNC isn't well geared that's a direct result as to the effort you have put into it's gear. No matter how much I put into any other support class it will never have the ability to hit all members outside of a party with AoE's. This is a unique advantage given to one job in one event.

Your pink DNC is also a support job / light DD hybrid, not a pure DD so you should be using your TP to heal and debuff. I would also suggest that anyone using curor bought abyssea gear move onto Empy gear or VW gear instead of trying to skip to the end. Especially if it takes you 5 minutes to shave off 10% of an enemies HP.

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHHH!

[Caketime]

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHHH!

[Spiritmage]

So I guess if NPCs were added to these fights, you would complain SCH and /SCH is broken as well?

[Malphius]

So I guess if NPCs were added to these fights, you would complain SCH and /SCH is broken as well?

Keep in mind that anyone can use /sch not just 1 job.

[Camiie]

I really don't want to be mean to you, Malphius, but a WHM complaining about SMN stealing your thunder in one event is really infuriating. It's like a millionaire complaining about homeless people getting free food at the soup kitchen.

You have so many events that you're wanted for. SMN is not nearly as lucky. If you look up niche in the dictionary you'd likely see a one-horned taru standing alongside Carbuncle. You find one event where a SMN can do better than your WHM, and you've got your pantaloons in a wad over it. You have a glimpse of the SMN's world where everyone is better than us for darn near everything.

If you don't like it, try adapting. Come as a job that can score a ton of points, or try playing your WHM in a more effective way. That's what SMNs have done over the years. We main healed or we came different jobs.

You can also ask for improvements to the way your job is handled in Reives. I don't recall SMNs ever asking for others to be nerfed so that they could shine. Why don't you do them the same honor?

[Malphius]

I really don't want to be mean to you, Malphius, but a WHM complaining about SMN stealing your thunder in one event is really infuriating. It's like a millionaire complaining about homeless people getting free food at the soup kitchen.

You have so many events that you're wanted for. SMN is not nearly as lucky. If you look up niche in the dictionary you'd likely see a one-horned taru standing alongside Carbuncle. You find one event where a SMN can do better than your WHM, and you've got your pantaloons in a wad over it. You have a glimpse of the SMN's world where everyone is better than us for darn near everything.

If you don't like it, try adapting. Come as a job that can score a ton of points, or try playing your WHM in a more effective way. That's what SMNs have done over the years. We main healed or we came different jobs.

You can also ask for improvements to the way your job is handled in Reives. I don't recall SMNs ever asking for others to be nerfed so that they could shine. Why don't you do them the same honor?

Please speak your mind. I would like to hear a rational argument for this not to be fixed which is the only reason i'm still at it. So far people are only speaking out of emotion and personal preference.

WHM isn't my only job. I have several and any of them I could come on but at the moment if this becomes a trend which I believe it will, I would not be coming on any mage job. My persistence in this is because it alienates an entire job class to a high value event. Wildkeeper Reives cost 100k. That's not easy to accumulate.

I also think you are under valuing SMN's worth. Perfect Defense alone makes several of them necessary to some of the best events in the game. Legion and Odin 2.0 being a couple. SMN is also always wanted for Voidwatch so i'm not sure what events SMN is being excluded from.

Why should an entire job class adapt to an unfair advantage of one job in one event? I'm not advocating a SMN nerf. I'm advocating a change in the event dynamics of Colonization Reives. I'm asking that SMN perform normally. Every job in the game performs exactly the same way in Reives as they do every where else in the game with the exception of SMN.

If SMN's want to do themselves an honor then they should rationally explain why they should be given this preferential treatment over everyone else? This has nothing to do with your satisfaction of SMN as a job or as a whole. I know that most SMN are very unhappy with their current state of affairs. However this is not a reason to expect or demand preferential treatment at the expense of others. So far all I see from SMN's is a sense of entitlement.

[Thundarian]

Summoner is capable of getting good to great bayld gain in reive's currently ONLY if they are spamming healing bloodpacts every 45 seconds and ONLY if those heals are all healing for close to their full potential. Is this unbalanced? Potentially. Is nerfing this going to fix any problems? No.

Why you ask? Well for one, this would screw over the summoner massively. If you try a summoner and go through a reive only throwing buffs / debuffs every 45 seconds (we are assuming an offensive BP on CD on roots or a mob every 45 in either situation) you are going to make trash bayld. There is little to not bayld gain for anything but doing effective healing for a summoner, which is why you see them doing it. They are forced to for ANY bayld gain.

Secondly, you would probably screw over reive's in their current state. A lot of the time the only way everyone is getting enough heals in basaalt fields when two turtles end up spinning on top of each other near the whole group, is if summoners are getting heals off. Lets face it, targeting in this game is archaic at best, and when you put 40 people in a tight space, not everyone is going to have a party, and as a healer you aren't going to bother trying to heal the people not in your party. People are going to die. No one is going to be happy.

Basically what I'm saying is you haven't offered a decent solution. Colonization reive's aren't Odin2 or Legion. They don't seem to be designed with the idea of being forced to put together an organized group, though you certainly can. Saying summoner would be fine if you changed reive's to be like those events is wrong. I don't get the option of targeting my heals / buffs on another party / group. Sucks, but that is how it is.

Finally for an example of how bad bayld gain is, doing a nakuul the other day (yay plenty of bayld to do nakuuls which drop no summoner gear because there is no summoner gear to spend bayld on) keeping up pet buffs / debuffs in a rotation on a large group of people and using off BP's, I made about 8k bayld over the course of the hourish long fight. My dps friend made closer to 20k (keep in mind for the last 20% I went back to healing / status removal to get up to the 8k). If I had been healing the entire time instead of attempting to contribute useful buffs / debuffs, I would have been closer to the 20-25k people are reporting are possible.

TLDR: tried to do useful job things my job seems designed to do, got screwed on bayld. Nerfing the one useful thing I can do to get bayld not the solution to the problem you are having.

[Malphius]

Summoner is capable of getting good to great bayld gain in reive's currently ONLY if they are spamming healing bloodpacts every 45 seconds and ONLY if those heals are all healing for close to their full potential. Is this unbalanced? Potentially. Is nerfing this going to fix any problems? No.

Why you ask? Well for one, this would screw over the summoner massively. If you try a summoner and go through a reive only throwing buffs / debuffs every 45 seconds (we are assuming an offensive BP on CD on roots or a mob every 45 in either situation) you are going to make trash bayld. There is little to not bayld gain for anything but doing effective healing for a summoner, which is why you see them doing it. They are forced to for ANY bayld gain.

Secondly, you would probably screw over reive's in their current state. A lot of the time the only way everyone is getting enough heals in basaalt fields when two turtles end up spinning on top of each other near the whole group, is if summoners are getting heals off. Lets face it, targeting in this game is archaic at best, and when you put 40 people in a tight space, not everyone is going to have a party, and as a healer you aren't going to bother trying to heal the people not in your party. People are going to die. No one is going to be happy.

Basically what I'm saying is you haven't offered a decent solution. Colonization reive's aren't Odin2 or Legion. They don't seem to be designed with the idea of being forced to put together an organized group, though you certainly can. Saying summoner would be fine if you changed reive's to be like those events is wrong. I don't get the option of targeting my heals / buffs on another party / group. Sucks, but that is how it is.

Finally for an example of how bad bayld gain is, doing a nakuul the other day (yay plenty of bayld to do nakuuls which drop no summoner gear because there is no summoner gear to spend bayld on) keeping up pet buffs / debuffs in a rotation on a large group of people and using off BP's, I made about 8k bayld over the course of the hourish long fight. My dps friend made closer to 20k (keep in mind for the last 20% I went back to healing / status removal to get up to the 8k). If I had been healing the entire time instead of attempting to contribute useful buffs / debuffs, I would have been closer to the 20-25k people are reporting are possible.

TLDR: tried to do useful job things my job seems designed to do, got screwed on bayld. Nerfing the one useful thing I can do to get bayld not the solution to the problem you are having.

Yes but your advantage still comes at the expense of others, a point that nobody is willing to face or acknowledge. I also don't believe that putting SMN into a party restriction for BP's will greatly reduce their Bayld. If support classes aren't getting appropriate points for buffing and performing their jobs as intended then this is another area SE needs to visit for adjustment. SMN does have the ability to spot cure however using their subjob. Cure 4 produces very generous numbers since the Healing Magic update. I would also be curious to see how a Light Spirit would react. I don't believe the argument that SMN wouldn't be able to function or get points with out this special ability.

I entirely agree that this is nothing like Odin or Legion and that wasn't my point. I was pointing out to the other poster that SMN IS very wanted for a variety of events. She claimed otherwise. I am not advocating also that they be changed to be like those events. I'm saying they need put in their natural state. Should PLD get 100% Invincible since they need to hold mobs? Should DD get Regain since they need to kill mobs? Nobody should have any special advantage.

Saying that you don't have the ability to target other parties with heals is a bit disingenuous. While you cannot target outside parties using your avatars neither can I target an outside party with Curaga or Protectra or Shellra or any of my AoE abilities. I have to do it the same way you would by using Accession. We would be on exactly the same playing field.

If you want me to propose a solution it is this.

It is obviously my stance that no one job be given an exception to it's play mechanics for any certain event. I doubt I will relent from this position. I've already stated several times why. I would take this stance regardless of what job it is. This is not an attack on SMN but an attack on the way Reives has been designed. My thread title is a tad inflammatory I realize now but it is what it is. It's still broken in this event.

If SMN is incapible of earning points by performing their job normally then this is obviously an area that SE needs to address.

I will say i've noticed a very low incentive factor for buffing those around you. It seems that the only way a mage can earn points in Reives is to cure for big numbers. You actually have more incentive to NOT buff as this will result in more opportunities to cure. I have noticed this with BLM and nukes as well. Point accumulation is still highly unbalanced. I do believe that SE needs to re-address this and I would like a response from the community reps around it.

That does not change my position that SMN needs to be operating in it's natural state as it's making for an unbalanced event.

[Aezelas]

I don't believe the argument that SMN wouldn't be able to function or get points with out this special ability.

Believe it. Aside from healing BPs, SMN doesn't get any baylds.
I've done some reives trying buffs BPs only (such as haste, stoneskin, enspells or fenrir's stats), i got nothing.

You said we could still use our avatars offensively. We still get no baylds. SMNs have been complaining enough for offensive BPs lack of power.
Forgetting about dealing damage with BPs only, I tried hitting on a root with a staff, double attack gear and Ifrit's favor. Shitty baylds again.

Healing BP is all we have. And it's not as easy as you make it sound, because we have to compete against other healers and smn.
You said your gain dropped down as soon as smns appeared in the event. I have exactly the same thoughts when i see a bunch of whm joining. It's a two way street.

I wish SMN could operate in its natural state. The deal is SMN natural state blows, and we're deperately waiting for SE to fix it.
Until then, we finally found something we can get benefit from. But i hear ya, i guess SMN hasn't been nerfed enough so far.

Speaking of unbalanced event, could you even name 1 or 2 events in the whole game balanced for SMN?

[Malphius]

Believe it. Aside from healing BPs, SMN doesn't get any baylds.
I've done some reives trying buffs BPs only (such as haste, stoneskin, enspells or fenrir's stats), i got nothing.

You said we could still use our avatars offensively. We still get no baylds. SMNs have been complaining enough for offensive BPs lack of power.
Forgetting about dealing damage with BPs only, I tried hitting on a root with a staff, double attack gear and Ifrit's favor. Shitty baylds again.

Healing BP is all we have. And it's not as easy as you make it sound, because we have to compete against other healers and smn.
You said your gain dropped down as soon as smns appeared in the event. I have exactly the same thoughts when i see a bunch of whm joining. It's a two way street.

I wish SMN could operate in its natural state. The deal is SMN natural state blows, and we're deperately waiting for SE to fix it.
Until then, we finally found something we can get benefit from. But i hear ya, i guess SMN hasn't been nerfed enough so far.

Speaking of unbalanced event, could you even name 1 or 2 events in the whole game balanced for SMN?

Legion, Odin 2.0, Voidwatch, abyssea solos.