Summoner in Colonization Reives = Broken

[RAIST]

[Edit:]Oh boy....if Malphius thinks we've been seeing walls of text before....get ready. I must apologize in advance to the Forum Members and Moderators, but I think this poster, and especially this post, has finally sent me into full-fledged Dennis Miller Mode.... "I don't meant to go off on a rant here, but...."

{rant}

I'm dense but you're the one that can't answer a simple question yes or no. That's rich. You're trying to have your cake and eat it to.

That implies "No" with a hint of "Maybe".

Again implying "No"

Strongly implying "No"

Leaving out "But it's not warranted at this time"

Strongly implying "Yes".

I guess i'm dense but you're the one flip-flopping more than Mitt Romney. How could anyone know your position.

nope, not flip flopping. in order to flip flop, one has to state one position, then state the opposite--you have to bounce back and forth. My position on extending things like Accession is neutral...I don't care if they do it or not. As I stated, it won't fix the problem that you have been focused on. At best, it may temporarily appease someone like you, but eventually, it will get saturated again and we'll be back to square one. Therefore, if the goal is to actually FIX the problem you are concerned about...it is not the right course of action. Thus, in the scope of what has been debated, it is unnecessary.

You said it's just addressing SMN but now that i've tried shifting focus to improving the other mages you can't give a straight answer and you say (3 times out of 4) "NO" don't do it. Don't buff the other jobs even though you yourself suggested it as well.

First, what you proposed is not what I supported. I brought up an adjustment to ALL jobs. You are talking about tweaking just the mages. Why? To offset the benefits of SMN (and later acknowledged, BST)--basically pet curing. I have never been against buffing jobs that need/deserve it. That initial suggestion (buffing all jobs) and the last few ideas I brought up would benefit EVERYONE, not just mages. And that is not limited to just this event either--some jobs need a buff in general just to catch up to everyone else. It is a completely different approach, as it is addressing things as a whole, not just one particular aspect that you were focused on.

Why quote the dictionary if you're just going to go with your own definition anyways? Clearly you understand there are different kinds of game elements. Since the element is with in the Reives system and not SMN or BST it's not a job nerf. If anything i'd give you that it's an event nerf.

No, it would not be just a nerf to the event. It would be a focused adjustment to reduce specific jobs within the event. Couple that with the fact that this is the most current, and one of the more relevent events in the game at the moment...simply because it is a means to acquire the new shinies. You will efectively be reducing one's ability to progress via specific jobs...thus, by extension, it is a nerf to those jobs because it reduces their capacity to progress in that event (not just bayld/exp, but everything connected to Reives as well as the bayld, as it can only be obtained in SoA content so it makes Reives very relevant for all). Even though it is focused just within the event, it is a nerf to pets in the event....but only to specific jobs and not a nerf to all jobs or the event as a whole. That would entail something like reducing the credit given for HP recovery activity. Be careful what you ask for....you just might wind up getting something like that, then where would we be?

Yes that's exactly what you've been saying is that SMN can only mass cure or get no rewards. When you tell me to use the list off wiki to boost my END EVALUATION reward you say it's useful, when I tell you to use it to do the same, you say it's worthless. Yep i'm still the one confused though.

Nope...wrong again. I didn't say that SMN can only mass cure or get no rewards. Talk about putting words in someone's mouth. What I said is that it is the most relevant way for SMN to contribute. I even said a SMN has to bust it's butt in there otherwise. Lets see if I can find some examples on these points...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post428163

The problem isn't that SMN is getting lots of XP by AOE healing people, it's that the WHM is just trying to get points ONLY from curing--and is only maximizing one aspect of it. On the other hand, the SMN is likely thwacking things with a stick, using offensive BP's, potentially taking some collateral damage from the AOE's and recovering that HP (at least, that's what I do). Compare that to the WHM who may very well be basically idle except for curing. It's very much like it was in campaign (I used to love to go /SAM and just smack the crap out of mobs for sh!ts and giggles...good times). You have to work for it if you want to get more out of it on mage jobs.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post428211

Something that doesn't appear to being considered much, even though it was touched on earlier. SMN fulfills a needed role out there BECAUSE of it's AOE buffs/heals. What happens when that is taken away? Wonder if there will be cries to reset it?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post428214

No, I'm saying that the issue at hand here is SoA content, not the others. If you take out SMN's usefulness, you may virtually remove it from an important portion of the content. See my last post. In some ways, this feature of SMN makes it WANTED in reives.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post428232

But, you're missing the point. If you take this feature away from SMN, you may wind up taking away it's usefulness in reives. Well, at least outside of a very limited scope of being in a party trying to take them on I guess. But, if one is putting forth that level of planning, they are more likely to take the job that is best suited for healing a party. Which jobs would they be considering for that role? SMN? I guess if nothing else is available, maybe.

So, what does the lonely SMN get for it's efforts in reives if it's not in a party?

What does nearly every other job get for it's efforts in reives if not in a party?

That's the problem. You are advocating taking away the one thing that makes them truly desirable in the new content. Having this feature doesn't lessen the desire for other jobs NEARLY as much as it would reduce the desire for SMN if it was taken away. Therfore, it actually does (in SE's twisted way) provide balance for the jobs.

Just think about it. If Garuda/Leviathin/Carbuncle are able to provide just enough healing support to sustain a reive long enough for the HP restore rewards to kick in and refill everyone, it frees up other jobs to focus on other aspects. Couple this with the fact that it is virtually the only way for a SMN to make sure they get decent rewards, while most other jobs aren't faced with that delimma (lets face it, most other jobs are considerably more durable than SMN if they are getting smacked by a mob--even BRD gets access to more durable gears at times)...than you are faced with a serious deficit if you take away the one thing that really gives the job a truly desired slot in the event.

The simple fact that a WHM can get somewhat decent rewards without focusing on healing should be evidence enough that it is NOT required that a healer gets all it's reward from curing, even if it is the one most suited for it. So, what is SMN REALLy taking away from the healer? At least there is another option for those other jobs to still perform relevant roles and get rewarded for their efforts...SMN actually pretty much IS the red-headed step-child here if you really think about it.

and so and so and so forth. Yes, this feature can make SMN stand out, but that also makes it more desireable in the content. Take it away, and only the die-hards (those of us who like to play aggressively with our pets, supplementing their damage with our weapons and sometimes even subjob magic) might be the ones that show up, and that's only if they've managed to work out a strategy to compensate. If their sole purpose for going is to get the most reward for their effort, they may likely opt to get on a more effective job. If that's the case, what in effect has happened? Most SMN got run out of Reives, a very relevant content. Those that don't have better options and have their progress reduced....nerfed, if you will, in the scope of progressing through this content.

I stopped coming on a mage job and started raping the trees/vines/rocks with everyone else.

About time you answered the burning question. So, your only solution was to job change and eventually come here to demand that SMN (and by extension BST) get penalized in reives. You didn't try to do something different to compensate for your loss on WHM, didn't investigate whether it truly was the fault of just the SMN's that showed up. Did it ever dawn on you that perhaps along with those 4 SMN, more players came along too?

I know if I saw a few SMN heading into formation at a reive, I'd be more inclined to hop in for a bit if I'm gonna be in the thick of it. I in fact made that decision tonight on NIN. Instead of going to the crickets reive, I went to the spiders (2 SMN present in a group of about 10)---and they sustained us for probably a good 30 minutes. I didn't rely on the SMN entirely either. A WHM was steadily curing us...hit me directly a handful of times for 440HP. I did die once because I got a bit too aggressive, but that's what NIN is supposed to do when tanking, right? With these guys, I got almost double from that reive as opposed to the others. Guess which I would prefer to roll with?

Once again I'm trying to make the point that SMN is desired in these events, but they don't kill a WHM's worth in them. Why is this? Because without them, people are more prone to unwanted difficulties and (in some cases), potentially less rewards per event. The longer a reive can be sustained without wipes, the better opportunity for people to get bigger rewards. Removing this potential from the event can in fact wind up reducing the rewards for the larger portion of the participants. It's pretty simple logic actually....the needs of the many outweigh those of the few, or the one.

Just restating it for emphasis, SMN fulfills a much needed role in Reives because of this mechanic and taking that away will severely diminish the desire to have them present, possibly to the point that they virtually stop coming. Extending things like Accession to behave the same way will NOT lessen SMN's worth in the event. We've seen this with Campaign--it had no impact on their presence either way. The same would happen here, so it's pointless to argue whether one supports copying that portion of campaign mechanics if your main goal is to counter the presence of a pet's healing mechanics. They will still be there even if SCH or /SCH can do the same thing. If anything, it will just create more competition...still requiring people to focus on other aspects for getting rewards. Therefore, once again, I have no incentive to push for such a change, since it will not address the balance issues at hand. In the scope of this thread's central issue, while it won't solve that issue, it also will not have a negative impact either, so I have no reason to be against it. So, I'm basically neutral on adjusting the healing to expand to more players cured per instance since we will just be in the same situation...what I am against is a change that nerfs the hp recovery aspect--in any scope.

Please try to keep your arguments short and too the point. I can't keep picking out the meaningful points from your personal feelings and insults.

Sorry the answers are more detailed than you like....just trying to get points across that, regardless how many times they are put forth (not just by me, but others too), just don't seem to be getting through. If you would actually work through the proposed scenarios and such, perhaps you might see the validity of what a lot of people have been saying....but for some reason, it mostly just keeps coming back to adjustments to HP recovery for you.

As for "personal feelings and insults"....that's rich, coming from you. It's interesting that you will come after my posts with such vigor and obstinance, even though I have been saying the same thing as others in the thread. "Personal feelings?"... isn't that kind of what an opinion is? In the absence of facts that we can be certain of, we base it on what we "feel" is right/wrong. Sorry, I just call it as I see it, and when I've seen it first hand...can be pretty hard-nosed about what I've seen proven to be true when put against what is purely opinion. Always been that way. I make mistakes, and get the wrong idea from some people at times...but at least I try to acknowledge that and set the record straight once that comes about. In fact, that's what most of this post is. Trying to correct things from your posts to me, couplede with trying to better clairfy my stance since it still seems to elude you somehow.

Perhaps if you'd stop deliberately trying to misrepresent others and goad then into a narrative that is clearly not supported, perhaps people could finally agree to disagree on the opinionated portions. But, facts are facts. There is more one can do to get ahead in reives than just one task (granted, results can vary depending on varying factors that do need to be addressed by SE). Without properly exploring one's options, one cannot accurately say "This is broken, and this is what is needed to fix it". Without reasonable data to substantiate that claim, it is purely an opinion/hypothesis based on limited experience, and is VERY prone to be challenged. Once that opinion/hypothesis has been duly challenged and dispelled with verifiable actions/data, it's time to accept the corrected account of things and move on.

Perhaps next time, a little more homework should be done before filing a complaint?

[Edit:]
{/rant}

[Malphius]

I'm not even going to bother reading that.

[RAIST]

I'm not even going to bother reading that.

[Edited out sarcastic reply, as it probably wouldn't translate well]

Well, guess it's time to lock the thread then. I so want to quote Ron White on this one.....

[Malphius]

Well, guess it's time to lock the thread then. I so want to quote Ron White on this one.....

Yes, if you've made one thing clear it's that this is all about you.

Why not respond to Pugs statement?

I switched to getting Bayld on SMN from BLU for the reasons many don't seem to want to fully admit. SMN is able to achieve very high evaluations both throughout the over all fight, and the end evaluation. Often getting very high EXP evaluation totals that are well above the final Bayld eval reward.

A few people have touched on this already in various ways but its important to note why SMNs are bothering to show up:

Like any other player, we're hungry for Bayld. 100k Wildskeeper KIs, gear, augments etc. It adds up, and its allot.

And like any effecient player, I will ask myself: What job gets me the most Bayld for the time invested?

I can't deal enough damage to get a decent evaluation on BLU, when most of the people out there can double my damage output with Relic/Emp WS or even Wildskeeper weapons, the Reive object, be it roots, or rocks, die very fast.

Leaving you with less than 500exp/bayld when enough rock smashers show up and race to finish the object's destruction attempting to do the same they do 'Smash allot, and fast,' which of course many can't.

Maybe I can help with getting monsters dead?

Nope. For the same reasons Single Target, or Single Party healers get frustrated with Summoners, those of us among the 'I just don't want to stand in front of a rock and smash it DPS race' get frustrated with Paladins. I'd like to kill the monster to output some offense, and maybe generate some heals/support scores in the process. I can't survive the AoE spam that many Reive mobs have, in the heart of Paladin tanking country.

I know the 'just stand in front of object and swing crowd' loves a good Paladin that can just hold the monsters the whole Reive, but again, hey single target healers, where is the argument that only 1 player receiving any damage the whole fight leaves room for more than 1 healer/support class to make any meaningful bayld/exp?

I'm extremely happy for Paladins resurgence, and I hope people start to realize that a PLD being good, is also a strong indication that RDM should be back in the plan too.

The heart of this argument is that there needs to be a better way for all jobs to be evaluated on their participation in the event. Not just those geared enough for peak performance, be it Taking Damage, Dealing Damage, or Multi-Target event wide Heals from a Summoner.

[RAIST]

Yes, if you've made one thing clear it's that this is all about you.

Why not respond to Pugs statement?

/sigh

I don't need to respond to it because I liked it...as in I clicked the button. Basically it is in line with what has been stated repeatedly here and across various forums. It's touched on throughout the post, but go back and read the last paragraph again...pretty much sums it up:

The heart of this argument is that there needs to be a better way for all jobs to be evaluated on their participation in the event. Not just those geared enough for peak performance, be it Taking Damage, Dealing Damage, or Multi-Target event wide Heals from a Summoner.

The real problem is that currently virtually only 3 things are needed to get a good score: do damage, take damage, and recover hp. The rest needs to brought into proper balance.

[Malphius]

So you agree though then that the other support job classes will never get good scores with SMN healing around? Even if you don't agree the ability should be removed or the other jobs improved with in the event?

I think a more productive thread should be started suggesting ways for Reives to be improved. This was started as just my one observation but others have chimed in with other experiences that I didn't know were happening either. Lets just call a truce. This isn't going anywhere and we won't agree.

[RAIST]

So you agree though then that the other support job classes will never get good scores with SMN healing around? Even if you don't agree the ability should be removed or the other jobs improved with in the event?

No..as has been shown throughout the thread, mages CAN get good scores regardless, if they adapt.

[Edit:] in reply to an earlier post...
no, this has not been all about me....it's about misinformation, misrepresentation

[Malphius]

Stick out an olive branch and this is what I get.

The real problem is that currently virtually only 3 things are needed to get a good score: do damage, take damage, and recover hp. The rest needs to brought into proper balance.

You just said only 3 things get you good exp/bayld. Why would mages show up to melee for dismal rewards when they can just come on their best DD jobs, which by the way contributes to the quicker destruction of the Reive.

[Edit:] in reply to an earlier post...
no, this has not been all about me....it's about misinformation, misrepresentation

Then why say lock the thread if I'm not going to read your post?

[RAIST]

Stick out an olive branch and this is what I get.

What you posted wasn't right, so I corrected it.

You just said only 3 things get you good exp/bayld. Why would mages show up to melee for dismal rewards when they can just come on their best DD jobs, which by the way contributes to the quicker destruction of the Reive.

If they want to put everything on hold and go job change....possible running to the porter moogle, or logging on a different character(or worse, muling gear)...more power to them. What if they don't want to bother with it? What if they are the kind that actually comes prepared for just this kind of thing, and can simply adjust their strategy on the fly?

These types of events are designed in a way that supports alternative playstyles. It's one of those rare situations that allows people to step outside of the cookie cutters and experience their jobs in new ways if they want. For some, there is a lot of untapped potential in some jobs...this is a great opportunity to unlock that.

And meleeing doesn't automatically end the reive faster. The idea is to have fewer people on the obstruction, so it lasts longer and the mobs keep respawning. And yes, this includes the mages. Why it's important to gear better if you can. It's the same tactic used in campaign when the belfries would show up--smack it a few times, maybe hit it with a DoT, but try to avoid destroying it so it keeps throwing new mobs out for you to smack around. Everyone benefits from a longer fight, more mobs, more rewards.

[Malphius]

What you posted wasn't right, so I corrected it.



If they want to put everything on hold and go job change....possible running to the porter moogle, or logging on a different character(or worse, muling gear)...more power to them. What if they don't want to bother with it? What if they are the kind that actually comes prepared for just this kind of thing, and can simply adjust their strategy on the fly?

These types of events are designed specifically to allow contraversial playstyles. It's one of those rare situations that allows people to step outside of the cookie cutters and experience their jobs in new ways if they want. For some, there is a lot of untapped potential in some jobs...this is a great opportunity to unlock that.

And meleeing doesn't automatically end the reive faster. The idea is to have fewer people on the obstruction, so it lasts longer and the mobs keep respawning. And yes, this includes the mages. Why it's important to gear better if you can. It's the same tactic used in campaign when the belfries would show up--smack it a few times, maybe hit it with a DoT, but try to avoid destroying it so it keeps throwing new mobs out for you to smack around. Everyone benefits from a longer fight, more mobs, more rewards.

And can a WHM or GEO melee as good as a SAM or WAR? The answer is of course no. Since you agree with Pug and even liked his reply you must agree when he said

And like any effecient player, I will ask myself: What job gets me the most Bayld for the time invested?

Certainly that isn't going to be a melee mage.