Summoner in Colonization Reives = Broken

[Jackstin]

Let's not bring mothers into this ladies.

[Dreamin]

is he still here crying that he's being beat by SMN in reive???

seriously I wish SE just give them AOE cures outside of pt because then they'll get beaten down fast and be on the floor and then they'll complaint and want the AOE to be restricted to pt/ally only.

[RAIST]

This whole thing is predicated on SMN's ability to AOE cure/buff people in reives. ALL of your arguments have been centered around this aspect. It has basically centered on curing specifically because that is what YOU made it about from the start. Don't sit there and try to make it like this ultimately does not boili down to credit given for hp recovery, ie methods of curing yourself and/or others. And I have not been focusing solely on WHM, I have repeatedly referenced other jobs that have such capabilities. WHM is just the job I tested with, the one that prompted YOU into coming here and requesting that SMN be nerfed because it impacted YOUR WHM's rewards. Or have you forgotten that you started tis entire thread because of the impact you saw on your WHM?

Here's a good question, and I seriously want to hear your answer. Upon discovering that these SMN's were impacting your rewards from curing others in reives...what was you next course of action to try to remedy the situation?

So SMN must be exempt from the entire list (half of which was not posted) because as you state it, the only way SMN can perform is by mass curing the entire Reives population. Hypocrisy in the flesh.

W T H? SMN must be exempt from what list? And I'm not saying the only way SMN can perform is by mass curing. I have been saying it is the most relevant way they can participate. I have not been the only one stating that by the way. I have stated that their offensive efforts are really low (I think "meh" was the term I used)--an argument you yourself put forth as a reason for mages NOT to melee. You asserted this even after a specific example was given, backed up by actual testing with a WHM...and a mediocre one at that. As for that hypocrosy statement....what you are claiming I have said is not hypocrosy, as it is not what I said. Down here we have a saying along the lines of the pot calling the kettle black.

Notice the term "game element" and no where saying "class". It's been my position from the start that this is a change the the reives battle system. Also since the opposite of a nerf is a buff, this event "buffs" SMN and BST abilities. Since I want them to eliminate this feature this would be putting them back on neutral ground as it does not detract from their job/class abilities that they have anywhere else in the game. A "SMN nerf" would be me saying "SMN should be on a 2 minute BP timer" which would clearly be ludicrous and a nerf.

Really. Are you aware of what is meant by the term game element in that definition? A job or job class is a game element. An event is a game element. A weapon is a game element. There are further definitions given, all pointing to reductions--be that potency, effectiveness, even desirability. A nerf can be made to make an activity less desirable (ie: the nerfed the return for selling choco-blinkers to disuade people from selling them). Really grasping for some straws on this argument. Also, it doesn't put them back to neutral ground as they are in every other aspect of the game. This is misleading simply because it applies in Campaign. But, that is a moot point. A nerf doesn't have to be a nerf across the scope of the entire game. It can be a focused tweak because of specific exploits. For example, landscape characteristics and how the affect pathing and provide safety for players has been accepted and used as a tactic in this game since it went live. But, it was getting abused in Abyssea, so one can technically say they nerfed the process of using elevation to avoid damage to discourage exploiting that tactic (just something that came to mind...I'm sure there are more specific adjustments made in other events that can be mentioned). This would be a nerf to and aspect of this particular event. It would reduce effectiveness of pets in this event, effectively reducing the masters from benefiting as strongly, and in effect dissuading the tactic. This is by definition a nerf. Unfortunately, it could well have the side effect of rendering the SMN job unfavorable as a whole in the event because of it's low returns on the offensive front---your own excuse for support jobs not going on the offensive. This would not impact BST in the same way, as it is better built for being up front and personal in battle--SMN on the other hand not currently set up well for this in reives (by comparison to more attractive options. Like you, many may not feel it is worth it...you have to be geared properly and really bust your @$$ just to get mediocre returns).

I have not been blaming SMN. I have been blaming a targeting system that directly gives a buff to SMN and later I found out to BST or I would have included them in the beginning as well. The only time I mentioned WHM was in my initial experience and discovery of this. This has never been about 1 job vs another. Secondly I was only responding directly to your posts statement by statement, a mistake that I have stopped making as i've noticed you gloss over things you don't like in my responses and fail to mention them in yours.

Umm.. yes... you have pinned this on SMN. And no, I don't gloss over your points. I just don't try to go through the post line for line like I am trying to do here...it's tedious. I just usually type as the thoughts come to me. Sometimes it's in order and happens to cover everything, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes my thoughts run ahead of my fingers and things get left out, and I go back and edit them in after the fact when I realized I left it out. And, haven't been portraying this solely as one job against the other...but you made it one job against a job class. Initially it was SMN vs WHM, but it evolved into SMN vs support, and eventually SMN vs. all jobs that it is in competition with as well as support vs. all jobs. That's what you don't seem to be acknowledging. Any jobs can be in competition for things at any point in time...but what you chose to focus on was SMN detracting from your specific rewards, and have been reluctant to accept that there is more one can do to earn acceptable rewards than that one task that was impacted by the presence of competition.

I don't know how you have been talking to me for so long and still haven't grasped the point that this is about the targeting system and not rewards or the competition or SMN. I don't care if there are 6 rdm/whm/sch/geo there curing with me. We're on equal footing. Nothing to complain about there. And if SMN was there doing the same thing (with in those same limitations) I would welcome them.

I don't know how you are not grasping the flaws in this approach with all the banter going on here. It doesn't put you on equal footing because it's 6 other mages. If 6 other jobs are doing the same thing as you versus one job doing it is still having a negative impact on your rewards for the same activity, and in the same scope because each instance for receiving credit has a cap that must be met for it to be redeemed. This cap is on a sliding scale, affected by progress in defeating the obstacle. If a SMN cures 10 people, which is what is needed to hit the cap, and 6 other people provide the same amount of healing and that is what is required to hit the cap---the end result in BOTH scenarios is that you get the same credit. With one exception. If the SMN has focused it's pet on the obstacle and is contributing respectable damage--the cap for that reward can increase. So, in theory, having a SMN there can actually net you MORE credits vs having 6 other mages for your competition (unless one is also beating a root or something). If none of this competition is present, yes.. you will potentially get more rewards. But to say you are on equal footing with a host of other mages competing vs a SMN may not necessarily be true.

My two main challengers refuse to answer the question on their quest to make personal attacks and put words in my mouth. Do you support giving Accession and or Curaga (and extending the same courtesy to other support jobs such as Bard and Geomancer) the same targeting rules?

Not sure where you get that we are putting words in your mouth. You've been quoted and referenced, and what you have said has been interpreted to mean different things perhaps...but I'm not sure I'd be saying someone has put words in your mouth. Personal attacks? Need to look in the mirror there. Extending cure tactics to reive participants could be a fix if it was actually warranted, but as has been repeatedly mentioned here, there are things a player can do to offset the losses within the exisitng framework. Interesting how you go right back to the curing aspect....you keep bringing it back to SMN's AOE curing being at issue, and your only focus is to counter that activity. Once again, I'll ask...what course of action did you take to remedy your losses when it happened to you?

Your mother should have raised you better. Be polite now.

Really. You're going to go there after stating you've received personal attacks. I have been trying my best not to call upon the Pimps Prayer in this thread. You just don't know how impolite people can be on this forum.

/facepalm

[Malphius]

Need to look in the mirror there. Extending cure tactics to reive participants could be a fix if it was actually warranted, but as has been repeatedly mentioned here, there are things a player can do to offset the losses within the exisitng framework. Once again, I'll ask...what course of action did you take to remedy your losses when it happened to you?

Yes or no please. You suggested that other jobs should be buffed instead of taking abilities away from anyone else. Do you support that now that I put it out there.

[RAIST]

I did address it. As I said, it could be a fix if it was warranted...

Extending cure tactics to reive participants could be a fix if it was actually warranted, but as has been repeatedly mentioned here, there are things a player can do to offset the losses within the exisitng framework.

Guess it didn't register. I'm not against it, but I don't think it's necessary as there is already something players can do to counter it. Time will tell whether it is rewarding enough, but I guess we won't know the answer to that question until more is understood about the reward system and people put things to the test.

Now, it's your turn.

Again... what was your first course of action once you realized your rewards from curing was reduced?

[Malphius]

I didn't say you didn't address it. I asked you for a yes or no response.

[RAIST]

grr....mods may be reviewing the thread or something. Likes and reply with quote suddenly started stalling out.

I didn't say you didn't address it. I asked you for a yes or no response.

My bad... should have opened that post with "I already addressed this". My stance should have been pretty selve evident, but since you didn't seem to catch it, I replied anyway.

Still waiting for an answer from my question.

[Malphius]

Yes or no please. It could be up for interpretation and then i'll reply.

[RAIST]

asked and answered....still waiting for the same courtesy.

What was your next course of action to try to remedy the situation once you realized your rewards from curing was being reduced by SMN participation?

[Malphius]

That's okay. I guess we can continue when you're more cooperative but that probably won't happen.