Summoner in Colonization Reives = Broken

[Malphius]

don't think they are "taking the lion's share"--if that where the case, people wouldn't be getting great xp on the more durable, heavier hitting jobs, or on the lighterweight jobs if they change up their playstyle--even with the presence of SMN's in the reives.

SMN isn't simply preventing a bunch of other jobs from getting decent rewards...they may reduce one's potential rewards from curing only if they don't adapt and compensate for the competition, but that's not just SMN that can do that--it could just as easily been a group of people on the same jobs that simply came into direct competition for that one player's slice of the action. So, technically everyone may get a reduction simply because someone else steps in...that's not because it was job x, y , or z...it's because another player is also doing what you were relying solely on for your rewards. That's the problem with putting all your eggs in one basket.

There is a flip side to this as well. It creates the possibility of enhancing everyone else's rewards, simply by the virtue of increasing efficiency. If people would really analyze this, they might find that by having other people assisting like this (whether its a couple SMN's or a band of happy WHM's), it frees people up to do other things they otherwise might not be able to, because they're stuck solely on that one detail--that could be any support capacity...haste/refresh cycles, curing, stunning--the point is you have less pressure to do this one thing, freeing you up to expand your contribution to the group.

There are other things that can be done for credit in reives, just like there was in all the other similar events that came before it. If you are letting yourself get pigeonholed as a one-trick pony, this is potentially going to happen to you in any event like this. All it takes is someone else stepping in to do what you are doing, regardless of the job--it can even be the same main job, but a different subjob, or simply different gearing that is allowing them to out-perform you in some way, and your usefulness gets diminished. This is true for a tank, a DD, a healer, a kiter--any job can be affected in this way.

We've seen this same type of disparity amongst players with all those other events in the past. For whatever reason, people figured out they couldn't turn big numbers doing things the way they expected to on a given job, so they figured out a better way to participate. What some are either refusing to acknowledge (or otherwise not grasping) is that SMN is being FORCED into being more or less a one-trick pony in this event. At least other jobs have reasonable means to still get decent rewards....SMN is not being afforded that luxury. Sure, it can try to go-balls-to-the-wall with it's staff and all...but it is at considerably more risk than other jobs when a mob decides to turn on them. The other mage jobs are simply natively designed for handling such situations much better than SMN--it's not just a difference of gear options, some have native traits/abilities/spells that afford them more safety when things get ugly. Can you really blame them for taking advantage of the one thing they can really count on to get decent rewards in this event?

Consider this: how many undead were slaughtered unmercifully with the cure bug?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I-X7a7AONI
Now, THAT was broken, and was appropriately fixed.

Since you asked earlier the numbers are direct replies that collate to your paragraphs.

1, 2 & 3. They are taking the lions share from one class of job. There is no denying that even though you refuse to acknowledge it even though the facts are right there in plain sight. If you eliminate the possibility for one class to perform their ROLE then you are doing just that. It's not just DIMINISHING it's ELIMINATING. No mages are going to melee either. I'm sorry. Saying try to increase your over all tally isn't acceptable either. You get Bayld two different ways. The over all tally seems to be about 50% of the equation. This is a job based game and I have about 6 sets of gear I carry around for any job. I don't have room for a set of gear that doesn't directly relate to a jobs strength. Nobody should be forced to go change jobs when 4 smn's / bsts swamp the event.

You continuously call this a nerf when it is not. It's a change to the event. Plain and simple. I'm sorry you don't like what i'm saying but it's only a nerf when it directly changes the job mechanics. This is a targeting system in reives that SMN and BST can and do exploit.

[Malphius]

Was wondering how long it would be until somebody would reject the whole "Curagas for everyone!" idea. I knew, to someone, it was never really about what's best for everyone.



Eh, I offer parties to people in Reive where we're short handed. I've been refused. And when people refuse to join me, I don't heal them. Or Raise them in the end. You can't just expect mages to be tabbing around like we've got nothing better to do than scanning for HP bars.

And telling mages to man up and start meleeing is all well and good when numbers are low for a Reive. Like maybe 15. When you've got 50 or so people at roots or crags, your damage is not going to measure up to other dedicated damage dealers. Might as well just come as a damage dealing job and let the 3 or 4 SMNs heal you.

When people say "do it for the good of everyone" they are talking about themselves. It's never about the greater good, it's just a thing people say meaninglessly.

[Malphius]

So since we can't change the event and we can't make Curaga follow the same rules as bloodpacts and pet moves can we make Accession follow those same rules? I proposed Curaga to prove a point which someone was kind enough to make for me.

If we use Accession it applies to all jobs that sub Scholar and it's on a time limit fairly consistent with BST and SMN timers.

[Caketime]

That sounds cool, Accession is already awesome, this would just make it more awesome. Though I am kind of partial to my Curaga's Butterfly.

[Malphius]

I know...but that was like 2 days ago (22nd post). Besides, that statement probably only came out because it's what others were talking about--curing outside the party, doing all you can to maximize your potential by doing other things...basically shifting the onus to balance one's scores to the player that suddenly found them self in competition for getting credits for support activities.

Despite all the alternatives out there (many presented in the thread), Malphius is still digging the heels in and calling for SMN to be nerfed in the events (129th post, late yesterday afternoon).

It's not "either put everyone else on par with SMN somehow, or restrict SMN", it seems to be all about putting the brakes on just one job in the event. That is why people refer to it as nerfing SMN for the event, because in effect that is what it will do because otherwise SMN gets pretty meh rewards without the AOE wards feature.

Oh you're speaking for me now?

Actually I proposed Curaga because it would kill SMN's ability to make any Bayrd the way they've been doing and it would "be for the good of everyone". This of course would make the event unbalanced towards WHM so I don't want that either.

This was a subject you completely ignored. I won't speak to why when you're speaking for both of us though.

That is why people refer to it as nerfing SMN for the event, because in effect that is what it will do because otherwise SMN gets pretty meh rewards without the AOE wards feature.

Looks like your true colors are starting to show however. Not about helping others, it's about protecting your Bayld advantage.

[Rekin]

Oh you're speaking for me now?

Actually I proposed Curaga because it would kill SMN's ability to make any Bayrd the way they've been doing and it would "be for the good of everyone". This of course would make the event unbalanced towards WHM so I don't want that either.

This was a subject you completely ignored. I won't speak to why when you're speaking for both of us though.



Looks like your true colors are starting to show however. Not about helping others, it's about protecting your Bayld advantage.

You don't seem to actually care about balance. It seems to be just a pedestal for you to tear down a job that is creeping up on your territory. Maybe you should swing that club some more like some others have suggested instead of screaming nerfs. You said it yourself DDing gives more byald than healing. So do the logical and start swinging.

[RAIST]

Since you asked earlier the numbers are direct replies that collate to your paragraphs.

1, 2 & 3. They are taking the lions share from one class of job. There is no denying that even though you refuse to acknowledge it even though the facts are right there in plain sight. If you eliminate the possibility for one class to perform their ROLE then you are doing just that. It's not just DIMINISHING it's ELIMINATING. No mages are going to melee either. I'm sorry. Saying try to increase your over all tally isn't acceptable either. You get Bayld two different ways. The over all tally seems to be about 50% of the equation. This is a job based game and I have about 6 sets of gear I carry around for any job. I don't have room for a set of gear that doesn't directly relate to a jobs strength. Nobody should be forced to go change jobs when 4 smn's / bsts swamp the event.

You continuously call this a nerf when it is not. It's a change to the event. Plain and simple. I'm sorry you don't like what i'm saying but it's only a nerf when it directly changes the job mechanics. This is a targeting system in reives that SMN and BST can and do exploit.

There you go again...

No, it is not taking the lion's share of rewards from ONE JOB CLASS. All it is doing is taking a portion of what is available for ONE SPECIFIC ACTION that almost HALF THE JOBS CAN PARTICIPATE IN. Just take a look at all the jobs that have a means to participate in the HP Recovery rewards. Several of those can also get rewarded for MP recovery, among a host of other things.

Oh, yeah.. and it's not just about having your mage melee. As I stated earlier, it was a tactic I used in previous events like this that I went and tested, only to find out that it indeed does have potential. So, lets look at all the things you can get scored on in Reives (from BG Wiki):

Physical attack
Magic attack
Damage taken
Monster vanquishing
HP recovery
Attack success
Resistance success
Enhancing support
Enfeebling support
Raising KO'ed players

Are you SERIOUSLY going sit here and say that a SMN healing is able to completely KILL a supprt jobs role in reives?

The ONLY way this happens is if (as I mentioned earlier) you are relying SOLELY on your cures for rewards, and even then that is not going to KILL your potential for rewards. But.. this is not something swpecific to SMN that impacts you on this front. It could be BST, SMN, BLU, RDM, WHM, DNC, DRG....pick any job that is capable of HP recovery---including, but not limited to jobs like MNK and DRK that have no access to a cure spell natively, but have abilities that can recover HP. Oh, yes, and this includes a BLM as well.

The person actually hurting these one-trick pony cure spammers are themselves. If you are doing nothing but cures then you are doing nothing to increase your caps for rewards beyond the credit you are getting for spamming cures. It's like participating in Campaign without renewing your tags, limiting you to the hard cap based on time present. If you are not taking any action toward achieving other goals, your cap remains static for each evaluation. If you would just step outside the box a little, you can do something else, achieve additional goal credits, and thus potentially offset the loss you incur because one of many jobs is also participating in the HP Recovery credits.

Have you at least even bothered to pick one... pick two, try to do a bunch of them or just one...the point is there is more a WHM, BRD, RDM, BLM, whatever job you are on can do to contribute to reives then just one action. You've got 10 potential reward categories. Pick something else to do if one isn't working for you. If that fails, try another. You may be surprised what you find you are actually capable of if you put forth a little creative effort.

And yes... it is a NERF for SMN if this is done. What happens when they have such a big chunk taken away from them? The same thing you are claiming has happened to you. Someone else is taking their rewards. Have you seen SMN's creating a topic hear demanding that WHM not be able to heal outside of party? Are they complaing that SAM, DRG, WAR, DRK.. host of other jobs are killing their xp from BP Rages, so they need to have weaponskills nerfed in reives so they can get rewards from offensive actions? NO. They have accepted the hybrid nature of the event, adjusted, and moved on.

That is a very important point you just don't seem to be grasping. This event is built to reward people for all actions they take during the event. It is designed so that creative players can better maximize their rewards. A DNC gets credits for using steps and flourishes in addition to waltzes and weaponskills. Mages can get bonus points for timing their magic damage with WS chains. There is soooooo much more a job with multiple scorable actions can do to obtain greater rewards.

But... if all one wants to do is sit there and spam cures, don't cry foul when a handful of extra players come in and start ramping up the hp recovery rate that happens to reduce your rewards because you refuse to do anything else to supplement your score and expect to get away with crying to take that opportunity away from just ONE JOB of MANY that are capable of doing this very same thing to you.

For instance... BST. Where is your rage against BST? Or will that be the next job you complaign about? Then who's next... RDM? SCH? DNC? BLU?... anyone subbing a job that can cure? Yeah.. that NIN/DNC over in the corner just reduced my reward by 1k. Reduce rewards for /DNC curing.

Where does it end?

[RAIST]

Oh you're speaking for me now?

Actually I proposed Curaga because it would kill SMN's ability to make any Bayrd the way they've been doing and it would "be for the good of everyone". This of course would make the event unbalanced towards WHM so I don't want that either.

This was a subject you completely ignored. I won't speak to why when you're speaking for both of us though.



Looks like your true colors are starting to show however. Not about helping others, it's about protecting your Bayld advantage.

nice way to try obfuscate, but things have already been put into context. That post came right in the middle of a string of posts talking about other ways to tweak the event. I was never speaking for you...but I did quote you and directed to where they were in the thread. As I stated, it was probably posted because such a discussion was already taking place. The point is, if such a discussion had not already been taking place and already leading towards that concept, you may not have commented on it. Tweaking other content to compensate was not brought forth by you...you briefly went along with it (then fell back to blaming SMN), but it was NOT your proposed adjustment. The OP said nothing of any alternative method, and you are still stuck on the same idea---that the problem is with SMN and therefore SMN needs to be restricted. No matter how many times it is shown to you that it is not SMN alone that creates this very situation you don't like....you just keep attacking SMN as the problem.

Oh, and yes.. it is a nerf, here are a couple definitions from a quick google on the term:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nerf

To make worse or weaken, usually in the context of weakening something in order to balance out a game.

Why the hell did Blizzard nerf Marines' attack damage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_(video_gaming)

In video gaming a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change.[1][2] The opposite of nerf is buff.

1.^ a b c Bartle, Richard (2003). Designing Virtual Worlds. New Riders. p. 305. ISBN 0-13-101816-7. "Now you're only making 40 UOC per pelt63. What do you do? Either you accept the realities of the free market or you dash off an email to the community service team screeching "Your STOOPID game NERFED snow wolves!!!"64. [...] 63 Or, if things get as bad as they did in Ultima Online, one UOC. 64 To nerf means to adjust the tangible effects of a virtual world element downward. Although nowadays it can apply to everything from skills to classes to races to spells, it's traditionally used for objects. It comes from the Nerf brand of safe-play toys. A Nerf gun does less damage than a real one."
2.^ Kaelin, Mark (2006-05-03). "Playing a MMORPG is not all fun and games, you better have the right vocabulary". Tech Republic. CBS Interactive, Inc. Retrieved 2008-12-15.

How many times must it be stated? The problem is not one job particular job. Thus, the solution is NOT to go and nerf that one job. The problem is the players that can't or otherwise won't think of anything else to do that might not only help them out, but everyone else as well. It's like you want thise reward line to be some sort of protected class. "To hell with everyone else... I want my precious healing rewards". If such a change is made as you proposed, then it would eventually follow that SMN cries even more for enhancement so they can participate. But, then there is the problem of BST being able to do the same thing SMN does...watch out... gonna have to take that from BST too. Then Waltzes will be reset to being in-party only again. And so and so and so forth.

THAT is why I keep challenging your absurd claims on this matter. It's not about whether I like SMN or not...which I admitted I do like, but FYI...I haven't been to a reive on SMN in about 2 weeks. I spent about a week on SMN, then one on SAM, and about a week on MNK. Next week, I intend to be on NIN. I've been spending a little time on each job, finding my ways with each of them. Something you haven't seemed to do very thoroughly yet. It's almost like you found out you can't succeed on one course of action with one type of job because there was one job in direct competition with you, threw your hands up in the air, and decided the problem was SMN and nothing else BUT SMN. Nevermind there may be 6 other jobs capable of and also doing the exact same thing--curing themselves and/or others for better rewards (whether that is the direct reason, or they want the reive to be successful--in the end, they get more rewards for doing it). No... that thought just never seems to sink in... it's all SMN's fault....no one else is in competition with me, just that !@#$@#$ SMN.

I'd stand up for BST in the same manner...and I almost never play mine anymore, but I have some friends who do that could be potentially impacted if their job was grossly stripped of their incentive to participate in content. Same goes for PUP (which I never even unlocked). Hence my posts in the pet job issues threads early on. It wasn't just my SMN that was affected. It was messing up my friends who I routinely do things with on their PUP and BST jobs. It isn't about SMN, it's about all jobs that are affected by the problem.

The same applies here. Support jobs aren't grossly affected by JUST SMN. They are, by the event's design, in direct competition with ALL SUPPORT JOBS, as well as other jobs that can potentially participate in those same roles even though it is not their job's primary role (ie: PLD, BLU, DNC...etc.).

It is not SMN that is the issue, it is more one of the symptoms/effects of the chosen approach(es) to the event by a select group of players. This is actually an issue that can be remedied by the PLAYERS facing problems in reives....provided they are willing to put forth the effort.

[Jackstin]

It's difficult enough to balance the whole game for every job, let alone each and every event-type.

This is a non-topic. Bring another job if you're not making enough Bayld.

[Malphius]

I'm going to keep this short while trying to respond to your statements.

There you go again...

No, it is not taking the lion's share of rewards from ONE JOB CLASS. All it is doing is taking a portion of what is available for ONE SPECIFIC ACTION that almost HALF THE JOBS CAN PARTICIPATE IN. Just take a look at all the jobs that have a means to participate in the HP Recovery rewards. Several of those can also get rewarded for MP recovery, among a host of other things.

Oh, yeah.. and it's not just about having your mage melee. As I stated earlier, it was a tactic I used in previous events like this that I went and tested, only to find out that it indeed does have potential. So, lets look at all the things you can get scored on in Reives (from BG Wiki):

Physical attack
Magic attack
Damage taken
Monster vanquishing
HP recovery
Attack success
Resistance success
Enhancing support
Enfeebling support
Raising KO'ed players

Are you SERIOUSLY going sit here and say that a SMN healing is able to completely KILL a supprt jobs role in reives?

So SMN must be exempt from the entire list (half of which was not posted) because as you state it, the only way SMN can perform is by mass curing the entire Reives population. Hypocrisy in the flesh.

Once again glossing over a point I make because you can't frame it with in your argument. Since you want to start quoting wiki now let me quote you this part which you left out: "Note that momentum bonuses do not directly impact the player's EXP/bayld calculation, but the effects are helpful in achieving higher evaluation values." So yes the SMN's are taking the lion's share of "exp/bayld" mini tallies as others have also said. Momentum bonuses only effect the final tally at the very end.


Since you want to define "Nerf" (and from such reputable sources no less) for me please stop. I know what it means. Both definitions work in my favor.

o make worse or weaken, usually in the context of weakening something in order to balance out a game.

It's been my position from the beginning that this is about balancing out the event.

In video gaming a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change.[1][2] The opposite of nerf is buff.

Notice the term "game element" and no where saying "class". It's been my position from the start that this is a change to the reives battle system. Also since the opposite of a nerf is a buff, this event "buffs" SMN and BST abilities. Since I want them to eliminate this feature this would be putting them back on neutral ground as it does not detract from their job/class abilities that they have anywhere else in the game. A "SMN nerf" would be me saying "SMN should be on a 2 minute BP timer" which would clearly be ludicrous and a nerf.

As I stated, it was probably posted because such a discussion was already taking place. The point is, if such a discussion had not already been taking place and already leading towards that concept, you may not have commented on it.

Yes, you're right. Because it's my opinion that this event should play like any other place in the game. However as a reasonable person i'm willing to compromise if it puts things on equal footing. I view giving Accession this same ability as a small compromise. It's giving yet another unbalanced advantage to another job but since Accession is not effected by skill (like BP's are) any job may use it with their natural magic skill set. The timers are also similar as a support job. Keep in mind this still leaves out bard and geomancer from using their abilities in the same fashion. Something should be figured out for them. I do challenge you though to find where someone was "leading me" to this point though because I don't remember.

Tweaking other content to compensate was not brought forth by you...you briefly went along with it (then fell back to blaming SMN)

I have not been blaming SMN. I have been blaming a targeting system that directly gives a buff to SMN and later I found out to BST or I would have included them in the beginning as well. The only time I mentioned WHM was in my initial experience and discovery of this. This has never been about 1 job vs another. Secondly I was only responding directly to your posts statement by statement, a mistake that I have stopped making as i've noticed you gloss over things you don't like in my responses and fail to mention them in yours.

Nevermind there may be 6 other jobs capable of and also doing the exact same thing--curing themselves and/or others for better rewards

I don't know how you have been talking to me for so long and still haven't grasped the point that this is about the targeting system and not rewards or the competition or SMN. I don't care if there are 6 rdm/whm/sch/geo there curing with me. We're on equal footing. Nothing to complain about there. And if SMN was there doing the same thing (with in those same limitations) I would welcome them.

My two main challengers refuse to answer the question on their quest to make personal attacks and put words in my mouth. Do you support giving Accession and or Curaga (and extending the same courtesy to other support jobs such as Bard and Geomancer) the same targeting rules?

THAT is why I keep challenging your absurd claims on this matter.

Your mother should have raised you better. Be polite now.