Summoner in Colonization Reives = Broken

[Manux]

There are quite a few reives where I seem to get just awful reward, besides turning it in. So this is actually happening. Some flaw in the design allows for it.

Yeah whm could spend the entire time subtargeting and looking for people to cure, but all a summoner needs to do is see an aoe go off in the group and instantly dispatch garuda.

I don't blame the smn's for doing this. I want pld/dnc to campaign because it was the god of campaign, but anyone saying the OP is wrong are actually wrong themselves. Now, like others have said, players who are bothered by it could level summoner or sub summoner etc etc, and there's nothing wrong with that notion.

Yeah there's nothing wrong in that subbing smn and doing that, its the same thing when people lvl up bst for dynamis currency.

[Malphius]

don't think they are "taking the lion's share"--if that where the case, people wouldn't be getting great xp on the more durable, heavier hitting jobs, or on the lighterweight jobs if they change up their playstyle--even with the presence of SMN's in the reives.

SMN isn't simply preventing a bunch of other jobs from getting decent rewards...they may reduce one's potential rewards from curing only if they don't adapt and compensate for the competition, but that's not just SMN that can do that--it could just as easily been a group of people on the same jobs that simply came into direct competition for that one player's slice of the action. So, technically everyone may get a reduction simply because someone else steps in...that's not because it was job x, y , or z...it's because another player is also doing what you were relying solely on for your rewards. That's the problem with putting all your eggs in one basket.

There is a flip side to this as well. It creates the possibility of enhancing everyone else's rewards, simply by the virtue of increasing efficiency. If people would really analyze this, they might find that by having other people assisting like this (whether its a couple SMN's or a band of happy WHM's), it frees people up to do other things they otherwise might not be able to, because they're stuck solely on that one detail--that could be any support capacity...haste/refresh cycles, curing, stunning--the point is you have less pressure to do this one thing, freeing you up to expand your contribution to the group.

There are other things that can be done for credit in reives, just like there was in all the other similar events that came before it. If you are letting yourself get pigeonholed as a one-trick pony, this is potentially going to happen to you in any event like this. All it takes is someone else stepping in to do what you are doing, regardless of the job--it can even be the same main job, but a different subjob, or simply different gearing that is allowing them to out-perform you in some way, and your usefulness gets diminished. This is true for a tank, a DD, a healer, a kiter--any job can be affected in this way.

We've seen this same type of disparity amongst players with all those other events in the past. For whatever reason, people figured out they couldn't turn big numbers doing things the way they expected to on a given job, so they figured out a better way to participate. What some are either refusing to acknowledge (or otherwise not grasping) is that SMN is being FORCED into being more or less a one-trick pony in this event. At least other jobs have reasonable means to still get decent rewards....SMN is not being afforded that luxury. Sure, it can try to go-balls-to-the-wall with it's staff and all...but it is at considerably more risk than other jobs when a mob decides to turn on them. The other mage jobs are simply natively designed for handling such situations much better than SMN--it's not just a difference of gear options, some have native traits/abilities/spells that afford them more safety when things get ugly. Can you really blame them for taking advantage of the one thing they can really count on to get decent rewards in this event?

Consider this: how many undead were slaughtered unmercifully with the cure bug?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I-X7a7AONI
Now, THAT was broken, and was appropriately fixed.

Since you asked earlier the numbers are direct replies that collate to your paragraphs.

1, 2 & 3. They are taking the lions share from one class of job. There is no denying that even though you refuse to acknowledge it even though the facts are right there in plain sight. If you eliminate the possibility for one class to perform their ROLE then you are doing just that. It's not just DIMINISHING it's ELIMINATING. No mages are going to melee either. I'm sorry. Saying try to increase your over all tally isn't acceptable either. You get Bayld two different ways. The over all tally seems to be about 50% of the equation. This is a job based game and I have about 6 sets of gear I carry around for any job. I don't have room for a set of gear that doesn't directly relate to a jobs strength. Nobody should be forced to go change jobs when 4 smn's / bsts swamp the event.

You continuously call this a nerf when it is not. It's a change to the event. Plain and simple. I'm sorry you don't like what i'm saying but it's only a nerf when it directly changes the job mechanics. This is a targeting system in reives that SMN and BST can and do exploit.

[RAIST]

Since you asked earlier the numbers are direct replies that collate to your paragraphs.

1, 2 & 3. They are taking the lions share from one class of job. There is no denying that even though you refuse to acknowledge it even though the facts are right there in plain sight. If you eliminate the possibility for one class to perform their ROLE then you are doing just that. It's not just DIMINISHING it's ELIMINATING. No mages are going to melee either. I'm sorry. Saying try to increase your over all tally isn't acceptable either. You get Bayld two different ways. The over all tally seems to be about 50% of the equation. This is a job based game and I have about 6 sets of gear I carry around for any job. I don't have room for a set of gear that doesn't directly relate to a jobs strength. Nobody should be forced to go change jobs when 4 smn's / bsts swamp the event.

You continuously call this a nerf when it is not. It's a change to the event. Plain and simple. I'm sorry you don't like what i'm saying but it's only a nerf when it directly changes the job mechanics. This is a targeting system in reives that SMN and BST can and do exploit.

There you go again...

No, it is not taking the lion's share of rewards from ONE JOB CLASS. All it is doing is taking a portion of what is available for ONE SPECIFIC ACTION that almost HALF THE JOBS CAN PARTICIPATE IN. Just take a look at all the jobs that have a means to participate in the HP Recovery rewards. Several of those can also get rewarded for MP recovery, among a host of other things.

Oh, yeah.. and it's not just about having your mage melee. As I stated earlier, it was a tactic I used in previous events like this that I went and tested, only to find out that it indeed does have potential. So, lets look at all the things you can get scored on in Reives (from BG Wiki):

Physical attack
Magic attack
Damage taken
Monster vanquishing
HP recovery
Attack success
Resistance success
Enhancing support
Enfeebling support
Raising KO'ed players

Are you SERIOUSLY going sit here and say that a SMN healing is able to completely KILL a supprt jobs role in reives?

The ONLY way this happens is if (as I mentioned earlier) you are relying SOLELY on your cures for rewards, and even then that is not going to KILL your potential for rewards. But.. this is not something swpecific to SMN that impacts you on this front. It could be BST, SMN, BLU, RDM, WHM, DNC, DRG....pick any job that is capable of HP recovery---including, but not limited to jobs like MNK and DRK that have no access to a cure spell natively, but have abilities that can recover HP. Oh, yes, and this includes a BLM as well.

The person actually hurting these one-trick pony cure spammers are themselves. If you are doing nothing but cures then you are doing nothing to increase your caps for rewards beyond the credit you are getting for spamming cures. It's like participating in Campaign without renewing your tags, limiting you to the hard cap based on time present. If you are not taking any action toward achieving other goals, your cap remains static for each evaluation. If you would just step outside the box a little, you can do something else, achieve additional goal credits, and thus potentially offset the loss you incur because one of many jobs is also participating in the HP Recovery credits.

Have you at least even bothered to pick one... pick two, try to do a bunch of them or just one...the point is there is more a WHM, BRD, RDM, BLM, whatever job you are on can do to contribute to reives then just one action. You've got 10 potential reward categories. Pick something else to do if one isn't working for you. If that fails, try another. You may be surprised what you find you are actually capable of if you put forth a little creative effort.

And yes... it is a NERF for SMN if this is done. What happens when they have such a big chunk taken away from them? The same thing you are claiming has happened to you. Someone else is taking their rewards. Have you seen SMN's creating a topic hear demanding that WHM not be able to heal outside of party? Are they complaing that SAM, DRG, WAR, DRK.. host of other jobs are killing their xp from BP Rages, so they need to have weaponskills nerfed in reives so they can get rewards from offensive actions? NO. They have accepted the hybrid nature of the event, adjusted, and moved on.

That is a very important point you just don't seem to be grasping. This event is built to reward people for all actions they take during the event. It is designed so that creative players can better maximize their rewards. A DNC gets credits for using steps and flourishes in addition to waltzes and weaponskills. Mages can get bonus points for timing their magic damage with WS chains. There is soooooo much more a job with multiple scorable actions can do to obtain greater rewards.

But... if all one wants to do is sit there and spam cures, don't cry foul when a handful of extra players come in and start ramping up the hp recovery rate that happens to reduce your rewards because you refuse to do anything else to supplement your score and expect to get away with crying to take that opportunity away from just ONE JOB of MANY that are capable of doing this very same thing to you.

For instance... BST. Where is your rage against BST? Or will that be the next job you complaign about? Then who's next... RDM? SCH? DNC? BLU?... anyone subbing a job that can cure? Yeah.. that NIN/DNC over in the corner just reduced my reward by 1k. Reduce rewards for /DNC curing.

Where does it end?

[Raksha]

All of the WHMs I know complain because SMNs are sucking up all the heals. I tried whipping out my staff and meleeing as SCH (and spamming haste/pro/shell) but i got super shit rewards.

SMN aoe cure worked in campaign because there were NPCs that had huge amounts of HP, so any healer had plenty of opportunities.

I support the OPer's suggestion that all curagas/accessions should also be able to hit everyone. Would make reives much more fun for me (as opposed to just switching to WAR)

[RAIST]

All of the WHMs I know complain because SMNs are sucking up all the heals. I tried whipping out my staff and meleeing as SCH (and spamming haste/pro/shell) but i got super shit rewards.

SMN aoe cure worked in campaign because there were NPCs that had huge amounts of HP, so any healer had plenty of opportunities.

I support the OPer's suggestion that all curagas/accessions should also be able to hit everyone. Would make reives much more fun for me (as opposed to just switching to WAR)

But that's what has caused such a ruckus in this thread... the OP was not advocating tweaking other jobs to compensate, but instead calling for them to specifically clamp down on SMN:

So I was doing Colonization Reives in Morimar Basalt Fields today. I was on WHM having a great time healing my party, buffing, doing my job, etc... when out of no where come 4 summoners and that's when things went down hill.

Because Summoner BP's seem to have no boundaries in terms of party/alliance they are going to completely rain down epic fails on the point gains of other support class jobs. I went from 500~700 Bayld per tally to 100 if lucky because all 4 Summoners were spamming BP's. That was with my trying to spam curaga to keep up.

BP's in Reives needs limited to party only or this is going to become PLD + SMN + DD only event.

This continued on for quite a while. He/She is still calling for it 129 posts into the thread:

Again it's been about removing the special ability that SMN's get with their BP's in this event. Because it's an event change it would also impact BST. Try to understand that the SMN job would not be nerfed. Nor would BST. This event actually increases their ability several times fold while leaving everyone else out.

How would SMN or BST respond if in abyssea every one could get atmas or curror buffs but them or in VW that anyone could use atmicite but them? Given the attitude on this board to the things i've said, I expect it would be far worse than mine. I would see several "I'm quitting" posts. I'm not salty about it because I can come on anything but I do think it needs addressed as it provides an unbalanced event. This isn't like Campaign or WoE because those are "open" battle fields. Reives is quite compressed and tight on space. So either they can open up the battle area way more than it already is, or they need to change something else with the way the event plays.

[Raksha]

All non DD jobs get shit rewards in reives. They should fix the event such that all support jobs get decent rewards, not just the one with a hugely unfair advantage.

[Aezelas]

Are people complaining about smn in reives even aware of BPs drawbacks?

I admit asking for mages' cures to be extended to all reives' players is smarter than asking for smn to be nerfed.
But, what if those extended cures would reset all your cure timers to 45 seconds?

Whm can spam cures. We smn can cure everyone but it's not like we can spam.
Plus, rabbits do huge damaging AOEs and a single BP can't take everyone to full HP.
There's still room for other healing jobs. If there wasn't, you wouldn't see people still dying in reives.

Those dead people would have gotten you some baylds if you've been quicker on healing them.
Remember your cure timers are not shared. Spam those while we wait for whispering wind to be ready.

[Caketime]

Are people complaining about smn in reives even aware of BPs drawbacks?

I admit asking for mages' cures to be extended to all reives' players is smarter than asking for smn to be nerfed.
But, what if those extended cures would reset all your cure timers to 45 seconds?

Whm can spam cures. We smn can cure everyone but it's not like we can spam.
Plus, rabbits do huge damaging AOEs and a single BP can't take everyone to full HP.
There's still room for other healing jobs. If there wasn't, you wouldn't see people still dying in reives.

Those dead people would have gotten you some baylds if you've been quicker on healing them.
Remember your cure timers are not shared. Spam those while we wait for whispering wind to be ready.

This x100. Everybody wins!

[Ketaru]

I admit asking for mages' cures to be extended to all reives' players is smarter than asking for smn to be nerfed.
But, what if those extended cures would reset all your cure timers to 45 seconds?

Was wondering how long it would be until somebody would reject the whole "Curagas for everyone!" idea. I knew, to someone, it was never really about what's best for everyone.

Those dead people would have gotten you some baylds if you've been quicker on healing them.
Remember your cure timers are not shared. Spam those while we wait for whispering wind to be ready.

Eh, I offer parties to people in Reive where we're short handed. I've been refused. And when people refuse to join me, I don't heal them. Or Raise them in the end. You can't just expect mages to be tabbing around like we've got nothing better to do than scanning for HP bars.

And telling mages to man up and start meleeing is all well and good when numbers are low for a Reive. Like maybe 15. When you've got 50 or so people at roots or crags, your damage is not going to measure up to other dedicated damage dealers. Might as well just come as a damage dealing job and let the 3 or 4 SMNs heal you.

As I've said, I'd be more than happy to sub /BLU on RDM to keep people healed if Healing Breeze would apply to everybody in the area. Bonus, I'll Cocoon and be able to access Sanguine Blade to aid in my own survivability. But as things stand now, Wild Carrot is AoE Cure IV that effects everybody in the area. It's easier for me to heal an alliance worth of people as a BST than as a RDM or SCH. Think about that for a moment.

[Malphius]

Was wondering how long it would be until somebody would reject the whole "Curagas for everyone!" idea. I knew, to someone, it was never really about what's best for everyone.



Eh, I offer parties to people in Reive where we're short handed. I've been refused. And when people refuse to join me, I don't heal them. Or Raise them in the end. You can't just expect mages to be tabbing around like we've got nothing better to do than scanning for HP bars.

And telling mages to man up and start meleeing is all well and good when numbers are low for a Reive. Like maybe 15. When you've got 50 or so people at roots or crags, your damage is not going to measure up to other dedicated damage dealers. Might as well just come as a damage dealing job and let the 3 or 4 SMNs heal you.

When people say "do it for the good of everyone" they are talking about themselves. It's never about the greater good, it's just a thing people say meaninglessly.