Being a Summoner can be disheartening these days :/

[Alhanelem]

Can't say i agree, but not 100% disagree, Giving them a Staves DMG isn't going to suddenly make their fSTR, Acc, attack and dDEX not suck. Without both a DMG Boost and the Alternator-Type buffs, neither are going to be very worthwhile (Except maybe Magicals).

As I pointed out, weapon DMG: and items that give more stats aren't mutually exclusive. Why couldn't we have both this systemic change of DMG: on staves having a secondary function for mage jobs, AND have grips that boost pet stats?

I'd rather them give us our Alternator Grip and just rework Avatars Damage/Delay altogether, rather than dooming them to Staff Damage, which hasn't gone well for any of the jobs.

This doesn't "doom" anything. It's a buff. a flat out plain and simple buff. All staves have a DMG rating. Many of them also have many useful stats. This would be an upgrade no matter which weapon you use, with the avatar's current base damage being what is used with no weapon equipped. Why are you not seeing that this is nothing but a benefit for everybody- it opens up a large number of weapon options- it makes the R/M/E weapons relevant to all playstyles and not just one. This just makes sense- the avatar's power will scale much better, unlike the way things are now where a SMN can easily outdamage its pet with a high DMG weapon- this way, the avatar is always stronger than you no matter what weapon you use.

Sorry, I just can't shake the idea that they need to fix the pets themselves first, THEN focus on gear bonuses to be used for the exceptions--not as a means to balance the job's shortcomings.

I said that in my post- I totally agree with this. The first priority should be fixing systemic issues, not compensating for the flaws with gear.

That being said, tying avatar power to weapon damage is more of a systemic change. You're never not going to have a weapon equipped short of stripga. higher levels mean higher dmg staves, so this does not break early game balance either.

[Karbuncle]

This doesn't "doom" anything. It's a buff. a flat out plain and simple buff.

First off, Yes, Its doom. whether or not its a buff I'm not debatting, But it'd be like asking "hey, Gimme some Dagger damage with a Polearm delay, cool with me, Better than a Pebble's Dmg!", If they're going to buff Avatar's Damage, I rather it not be tied to the weapon I'm using, If anything I'd rather them just flat out buff Avatars damage rating up to about on par with our best damage staff.

For a Summoner who can't get their hands on a D:150 or higher staff, what do they get? Plenitas? I mean its better than nothing but its still garbage compared to even level 85 Empyreans. Staff is by and far ahead the worst melee weapon in the entire game, so while it'd be better than our avatar's current DPS, it will not even remotely make people take a second look at SMN, we'd go from "Sword Dmg and axe delay" to "Staff dmg and axe delay", which will still be pretty top tier garbage.

All staves have a DMG rating. Many of them also have many useful stats. This would be an upgrade no matter which weapon you use

Fay Crozier
Chatoyant
Soulscourge
Any Magian Perp Staff.
Avitap Pole(I think?)

All of these commonly used weapons have worse damage ratings than our avatars currently have, meaning if your SMN isn't lucky enough to have the Delve weapon, or Skirmish weapon, It'd be a clear and concise nerf.

Regardless, done with the quoting, as i said in my last post, An Alternator is good, upgrading their damage is good, but one without the other won't mean much for the job, and if they are going down the "Buff their dmg" street, I'd rather it not be tied to "Whats the best staff i can get my hands on?" and it be more like BST and PUP, and not their plans for DRG. the plans for DRG work cause Polearms generally have crazy dmg and high buffs, and Wyvern's aren't designed around Blood:Pact or "Special attack" Systems like PUPs, BST, and SMN...

Talking in circles more but srsly, If they're going to upgrade Avatar DPS by any amount, I'd rather them make it something meaningful, rather than give us the DMG of the single worse melee weaponry in the entire game. Basically, I know you see my point.

[Alhanelem]

Unless I missed a few pieces of gear coming out (always possible), I'd end up losing 2-3 points worth of auto-refresh without using those staves. You are correct in saying I don't need them to 0 out the cost between perpetuation and auto-refresh gear, however, I don't see why I shouldn't be trying to maximize my returns without sacrificing damage.

In this case, you WOULD be maximizing your returns AND your damage. You don't need a perp staff- ever. There is so much MP recovery in the game now that even if you don't completely cancel it, it's a nonissue. There's no reason to ever be using anything other than a staff that helps either you or the avatar (or both) do more damage.

As far as gear, I don't know when you last played, but perp staves have been pretty much unnecessary (meaning "don't need the benefit," more than "has no benefit) since caller's set +2 came out.

[Mokeil]

In this case, you WOULD be maximizing your returns AND your damage.

Ah, I should have clarified better. My apologies. My comment about maximizing damage was in response to you mentioning Avatar's Favor to keep perpetuation down. A "minimal loss in damage" is still a loss in damage, ergo I do not want to use Avatar's Favor if its only purpose is to minimize my perpetuation if my perpetuation can be minimized in ways that have no negative impact on my damage.

The comment was not directed towards your proposed idea of tying avatar stats into the stats on staves.

You don't need a perp staff- ever. There is so much MP recovery in the game now that even if you don't completely cancel it, it's a nonissue.

I believe I stated fairly unequivocally that you were indeed correct when you said you do not need a -perp staff. I flat out agreed, and added no caveats to that agreement. With that in mind, I'm not sure why you felt you needed to repeat yourself.

There's no reason to ever be using anything other than a staff that helps either you or the avatar (or both) do more damage.

A fair statement! When I melee, I use a staff (and gear) appropriate to such a task. When I use a blood pact I switch to yet another staff. Why then, when I am not meleeing or using a Blood Pact should I not be using a staff that benefits me by ensuring I have just a little more MP? If there's another staff out there I should be using during such a time, please tell me and I will make every effort to acquire it.

As far as gear, I don't know when you last played, but perp staves have been pretty much unnecessary (meaning "don't need the benefit," more than "has no benefit) since caller's set +2 came out.

Taking a look at what's currently out there: The Caller's +2 Doublet and Pigaches account for -7 perp. The Evoker's Ring adds another -1. The Summoner's Horn +2 would give another -3... Oh! And the Adhara Gages grant -2. All in all, that's -13 perpetuation. That still leaves me with a perp cost of -2. Factor in Summoner's native auto refresh and I would balance out to exactly 0 cost. (Demonstrating that - exactly as I agreed - you are indeed correct). I can even sneak in an augmented Stearc Subligar and Moonshade Earring for a net gain of +2MP per tick.

On the other hand, with my current setup (counting in the -perp staves) I can pull in a passive +5MP per tick. So, again, you're right that I don't "need" a -perp staff, but it's still nice to have given that there's nothing else for me to use when I'm not meleeing.

Should such a change you ask for be implemented, I will of course switch to whatever staff would improve my performance in the best manner. Heck, I'm not even against the change you propose. I merely opined that I would miss my -perp staves. All that extra MP is nice to have.

[Babekeke]

I haven't actually used SMN in Adoulin yet, so I'm still intrigued as to what sort of damage the BPs can push out there.

The benefit of SMN, and the reason we never got any upgrades before was that BP: Rage received no Level Correction Factor Penalties, so although BPs didn't do the best damage, or all that quickly, it was consistant, and VS lvl 120 content, just as strong as vs lvl 75 content.

Now that in Adoulin they got rid of the LCF and just increased mob stats to reduce damage taken of higher mobs, does this mean SMN completely sucks for damage now?

[Mokeil]

I haven't actually used SMN in Adoulin yet, so I'm still intrigued as to what sort of damage the BPs can push out there.
[...]
Now that in Adoulin they got rid of the LCF and just increased mob stats to reduce damage taken of higher mobs, does this mean SMN completely sucks for damage now?

Purely anecdotal accounting:
I tend to get something between 1200 and 1500 on the mobs in Ceizak and Yahse (depending on the mob and which avatar I have out).

I've also done a few Delve NMs as Summoner. I tend to miss a lot on the Physicals - the few that have landed have varied from 500 to 1400. More Misses than not, however.

I haven't had much luck landing Magical Pacts, either. Most get resisted into oblivion. Nether Blast is a pretty consistent 500-600, though.

At the very least, when blasted out early in a fight, Odin will drop a fair 9 -10k or so!

[Thundarian]

Damage is pretty awful unless you are playing to the mob elemental weakness with no delve gear (don't bother trying to land phy blood pacts right now unless you have an avatar acc set). Nether blast spamming isn't an awful idea. That said, with the Delve staff and helm, I hit decently. Right now for Delve NM's the content for casters is a lot about hitting your magic bursts imo for 2k+ damage depending on pet tp and setup. Playing to mob elemental weakness is important though. I find myself using Shiva and Ramuh for damage the most right now.

[Alhanelem]

First off, Yes, Its doom. whether or not its a buff I'm not debatting, But it'd be like asking "hey, Gimme some Dagger damage with a Polearm delay, cool with me, Better than a Pebble's Dmg!", If they're going to buff Avatar's Damage, I rather it not be tied to the weapon I'm using, If anything I'd rather them just flat out buff Avatars damage rating up to about on par with our best damage staff.

Well, we'll just have to disagree here. Why would you rather it not? How does it hurt you? If using a DMG:150 staff gives you more damage than an elemental staff, isn't that a good thing? shouldn't we be able to use level 99 gear at level 99 instead of level 51 gear? This doesn't doom anyone or anything.

All of these commonly used weapons have worse damage ratings than our avatars currently have, meaning if your SMN isn't lucky enough to have the Delve weapon, or Skirmish weapon, It'd be a clear and concise nerf.

I think you're missing something here. I didn't say that it would be straight up "Avatar's damage = wepon damage rating." I said the base damage with NO WEAPON EQUIPPED would be exactly the same as it is currently. Thus, equipping a weapon, any weapon, would result in an increase in damage. It wouldn't be 1:1, because that would be ridiculous- but it would increase the avatar's physical damage.

So let's say you are naked, and your avatar's base DMG: is 50. (just saying for example purposes.) You equip a skirmish staff with DMG: 103, and the avatar's DMG: goes up to (example) 120. Essentially, it would work like hand to hand in this regard (all avatars do HTH damage with melee as it is anyway).

All of those commonly used weapons you listed would still be better than not having a weapon equipped. No weapon would ever decrease your avatar's damage below what it is currently, unless SE invents some piece of garbage item with a negative DMG rating.

By the way, since you seem to know but aren't stating it, what are the summons' base DMG: ratings? It would go a long way giving a more precise ratio.

Talking in circles more but srsly, If they're going to upgrade Avatar DPS by any amount, I'd rather them make it something meaningful, rather than give us the DMG of the single worse melee weaponry in the entire game. Basically, I know you see my point.

I'm afraid I don't see your point. you don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying "Avatars should attack with your staff using its damage and delay." I'm saying "Avatars should get a bonus to damage based on the DMG: rating of the staff you're using." A great improvement that would increase the relevance of many staves in the game to summoners who choose not to ever swing them. The bonus would be based on the DMG: only, not the delay, which would be unmodified.

Using the parameters I described, your avatars would always hit for more damage both with their melee attacks and blood pacts than you would with your staff, no matter how strong it is. Currently, this is not the case. I think the other people in this thread understand what I'm getting at here. Think of it as if a weapon read like this (just without it being seperately listed as a stat):

Hvergelmir
(Staff) All Races
DMG:113 Delay: 390 MP+150
"Myrkr" Aftermath: Occ. deals dbl. damage
Pet: DMG: +80
Lv.99 BLM/SMN/SCH

You would of course still want to switch to a MAB or elemental type staff for magical blood pacts.

[Karbuncle]

So what you're saying is, Your staff damage would be added to your avatars base damage, not replace it?

WELL WHY DIDNT YA SAY SO BRO.

While i still think a refit to their damage formula would be better for us, and probably 8,000,000% Easier to program, If it was just "Add dmg to pole" Its not bad, Gives a reason for Claustrum to exist when/if its buffed. Still:

shouldn't we be able to use level 99 gear at level 99 instead of level 51 gear? This doesn't doom anyone or anything.

Well, Duh, But that doesn't mean there aren't level 51 weapons or such that are still worth using for SMN, Unfortunately until they release a DMG:150 Staff with Perpetuation Cost-, Things like Fay Crozier and Chatoyant are going to remain in use, even with the best of gear most avatars will cost your or be just free without Favor, and its better to get MP back... Its not about "Moving on is good!" is that there's this cold harsh reality no matter how much we believe in the heart of the cards, those weapons are still useful :|

Plus, While SMN Is a gear heavy job, Its never been a "You have RME? no? Then gtfo my party" job. Making it so where Staff damage is added to your pets, the damage of your Avatar would be heavily dependant on you owning a Delve weapon, which means, the job, if ever invited to DD, would now become just another "Got RMED? no? Gtfo our party" job, which i believe would be a step backwards.

Even you can't deny that yes, this would happen, you know FFXI too well.