Being a Summoner can be disheartening these days :/

[Karbuncle]

So what you're saying is, Your staff damage would be added to your avatars base damage, not replace it?

WELL WHY DIDNT YA SAY SO BRO.

While i still think a refit to their damage formula would be better for us, and probably 8,000,000% Easier to program, If it was just "Add dmg to pole" Its not bad, Gives a reason for Claustrum to exist when/if its buffed. Still:

shouldn't we be able to use level 99 gear at level 99 instead of level 51 gear? This doesn't doom anyone or anything.

Well, Duh, But that doesn't mean there aren't level 51 weapons or such that are still worth using for SMN, Unfortunately until they release a DMG:150 Staff with Perpetuation Cost-, Things like Fay Crozier and Chatoyant are going to remain in use, even with the best of gear most avatars will cost your or be just free without Favor, and its better to get MP back... Its not about "Moving on is good!" is that there's this cold harsh reality no matter how much we believe in the heart of the cards, those weapons are still useful :|

Plus, While SMN Is a gear heavy job, Its never been a "You have RME? no? Then gtfo my party" job. Making it so where Staff damage is added to your pets, the damage of your Avatar would be heavily dependant on you owning a Delve weapon, which means, the job, if ever invited to DD, would now become just another "Got RMED? no? Gtfo our party" job, which i believe would be a step backwards.

Even you can't deny that yes, this would happen, you know FFXI too well.

[Alhanelem]

WELL WHY DIDNT YA SAY SO BRO.

It's what i've been trying to say the whole time.

We have tons of weapons and other items that boost avatar magic. For physical, we have a handful of items that say Avatar: increases attack which only work on blood pacts and which are so trivial they're not worth using. Nothing increases avatar melee damage and nothing measurably increases avatar physical blood pacts. People have always been asking for reasons to keep their summons out. Having them actually do meaningful DPS would be a pretty good reason if you ask me.

Unfortunately until they release a DMG:150 Staff with Perpetuation Cost-,

Doesn't need to have perpetuation cost - on it. I already argued this with someone else. There is already an overabundance of this stat on all other gear slots. You do not need a weapon to render perpetuation cost irrelevant. Even without remarkable gear you can negate it with avatar's favor, which gives you a buff and has a negligible effect on physical BPs and a larger but still minor effect on magic BPs, which can easily be countered by the gear available today (e.g. skirmish weapon with +50 pet MAB).

Not saying I would complain if they had perp cost on them, but it's completely unnecessary and if it meant not having some other beneficial stat on them, I would rather have the other beneficial stat instead.

Its never been a "You have RME? no? Then gtfo my party" job.

This is only because most people have historically regarded the RME as worthless outside of a niche group of people. To make these weapons more relevant is really not a bad thing. (The SMN empyrean is very easy to get, this wouldn't be putting any kind of major burden on people. The Skirmish weapon isn't bad to get either and it's very similar in DMG: )

Besides, Staff has a lot more weapons which come close to the RME in physical power than other weapon types. There are alternatives that would still be effective.

[Mokeil]

I already argued this with someone else.

I think I'm a little hurt that I didn't rate well enough to at least have my name given. I may start to think you don't like me at this rate...

There is already an overabundance of this stat on all other gear slots. You do not need a weapon to render perpetuation cost irrelevant. Even without remarkable gear you can negate it with avatar's favor, which gives you a buff and has a negligible effect on physical BPs and a larger but still minor effect on magic BPs, which can easily be countered by the gear available today (e.g. skirmish weapon with +50 pet MAB).

I came out to -13 perp cost without a staff. This is not what I'd call an "overabundance" given that the practical cap for -perp on Celestials is -14. Is there some gear I didn't mention that you know of? Something that would actually put us over the cap, perhaps allowing us to slide in bits of refresh gear instead of -perp (i.e. Caller's Horn +2 VS Summoner's Horn +2), maybe?

(Also, if you would oblige me, I'd appreciate a clarification as to what you mean by "remarkable". Do you mean as in: something that can only be acquired through a difficult and/or time consuming event - which the Adhara Gages might qualify as for by some - or do you mean as in: something like the Aegis that radically alters the way a job can approach an event?)

Ultimately, I merely take exception to the way you say that perp costs are "irrelevant". Without the -perp currently available on staves we can minimize its impact, yes, but you have yet to demonstrate a means by which I can attain maximal -perp through gear (sans weapon) without lowering either my damage or reducing my passive MP returns. No matter how you slice it, losing damage or losing passive MP returns still sounds like suboptimal performance to me.

Like I said, if there's some other staff out there I ought to be using, I'd love to hear about it.

Not saying I would complain if they had perp cost on them, but it's completely unnecessary and if it meant not having some other beneficial stat on them, I would rather have the other beneficial stat instead.

If the other beneficial stats were exactly that, I'd take them over a -perp staff, too. There are plenty of other things that could be put onto a weapon that would benefit us, but don't try to pretend that we still wouldn't be losing something out of the deal. Something worth giving up for the right stats? You betcha.

However, telling us we don't "need" maximized -perp sounds like something akin to telling us we don't "need" -15 BP delay, or telling a Whitemage they don't "need" 50% cure potency, or telling a melee that they don't "need" 25% in gear haste. While technically true, it is nonetheless silly to think that anyone would ever want to settle for anything other than maximized performance if they could help it.

[Mokeil]

Plus, While SMN Is a gear heavy job, Its never been a "You have RME? no? Then gtfo my party" job. Making it so where Staff damage is added to your pets, the damage of your Avatar would be heavily dependant on you owning a Delve weapon, which means, the job, if ever invited to DD, would now become just another "Got RMED? no? Gtfo our party" job, which i believe would be a step backwards.

I hate to say it, but be it staff or grip I'm worried that is exactly what's going to happen no matter what. In either case, its going to become the "must have" item or you're gimped. The only silver lining I can see is that every job will be in the same boat...

[Alhanelem]

I think I'm a little hurt that I didn't rate well enough to at least have my name given. I may start to think you don't like me at this rate...

No, nothing against you- it was just kind of a hasty response.

I came out to -13 perp cost without a staff.

You may be forgetting auto refresh II and 2 refresh on summoner's horn. Favor can also grant you -3 perp cost. perp cost doesn't even need to be completely negated to be irrelevant. The question you have to ask is a simple one- Can you perform the job you came to perform without having to stop because you ran out of MP? It's honestly pretty rare for anyone to have to say this these days. If you can answer yes to that question, you don't *need* more perp -. Without favor or weather or day the celestial avatars have me at -3/tick, those other things can neutralize it or give me a slight gain. even without it, it's not an issue because I can recover MP easily enough with siphon, weapon skills, capabilities of certain subjobs, and/or support effects from party members, depending on the situation. Unless none of these things are available to me, MP is generally not a problem.

(Also, if you would oblige me, I'd appreciate a clarification as to what you mean by "remarkable".

I pretty much mean anything you can't realistically obtain while playing summoner in the current community climate. e.g. stuff from the current expansion excluding items obtainable with bayld, Empyrean +2, anything from abyssea and voidwatch (which summoner can usually participate in) is not "remarkable."

So basically, TL;DR would be: Irrelevant, in this case, means "this mechanic is not inhibiting my ability to use my job's functions." IMSHO, this happens well before it reaches 0 or goes to net gain.

[Karbuncle]

You may be forgetting auto refresh II and 2 refresh on summoner's horn.

He might be forgetting Auto-Ref II, But I assume he's using Summoner's Horn +2 (Perp-3) in his equations :x

And using Favor kinda negates the idea of doing damage with your avatars as If i remember right, Its something -Attack, -20MAB, and -10 Acc.

[Mokeil]

He might be forgetting Auto-Ref II, But I assume he's using Summoner's Horn +2 (Perp-3) in his equations :x

Two for two, sir. It seems I made my own hasty post. I remembered to account for it the first time, then forgot to mention this time that the 2 points of auto-refresh will, indeed, exactly 0 out the cost. And I definitely did say I was using the Summoner's Horn +2, vs the Caller's +2 when I first arrived at that number.

Without favor or weather or day the celestial avatars have me at -3/tick, those other things can neutralize it or give me a slight gain.

And in the same situation I pull in +5/tick. Using Favor does nothing but penalize me, as it cuts my avatars' offensive powers, and does nothing to give me more MP back. Yes, I can get the job done with a -3 cost (did for years before Abyssea came along after all), but I can do so much more with the +5.

For me, having a maximized -perp/refresh set is like the difference between a melee having, oh... an 85 Empy, and a 99 one. The difference is small, and a skilled player with an 85 is better than a lousy player with a 99, but it's still better (from the perspective of the owner) to have the 99.

[Kiakasha]

I find it amusing that they have no idea of what to do with Summoner. Or any other mage for that matter.
They are so afraid of overpowering them that they'd rather let them agonize and buff SAM or whatever other melee class (that is not THF or DRG, as far as I can tell) hoping that everyone will eventually jump on the bandwagon and forget about them altogether.
But then they throw at us events that need magical damage and support and it's all good and dandy until you find out all the rewards heavily favor melee classes while you walk away with +MAB for your BRD.

They seriously need to put their brains together and think about the situation of magic at this stage of the game's life. Even the simple fact that we have never had magic-specific food, let alone pet-specific food, except for HMP is honestly insulting.

Yes, I am butthurt about it.

Also, if they think I'm just going to quit XI to play ARR when it comes out they are underestimating my intelligence.

I agree! so afraid of overpowering mage and pet class jobs! at this moment the game is all about supporting the two handed melee SAM, DRK and WAR! where is the balance...

[Kuvo]

I really didn't pay attention to how the hate system was updated until recently. Most of the time I play this game I solo older content or ill dual box with sam as my main. I never had an isse as sam keeping hate. But I just picked up redmage again and tried to level dagger skill on crawlers in the past and I was shocked at how hard it was for me to keep hate. I would be killing this mob up to about 10% left of its life and my dual box character I would just have sit there doing nothing the whole fight. Then I casted stoneskin with my dual box whm and took all the hate from my redmage and couldn't get it back. I couldn't believe it. This emnity system is all screwed up to no end. I was going to start leveling summoner for both characters but I don't know now until avatar emnity is fixed.

[Calatilla]

So what gear are you using where you don't need a -perp staff to keep an avatar out without it costing you mp? And at present there aren't any better staves to use when not using a BP other than a -perp staff.