Pld Emnity/hate distribution chages?

[hiko]

-give pld a new trait : damage resistance (work as a separate term than damage reduction)
-change pdif formula from monster so defense have a higher impact on damage taken(more in a way where DD take more)
- shield stance : block 100% of attack for short time, with some negative effect (cant do any other action while under effect / hi CE loss /???)
- more enmity tool not related to dmg dealt
- some sort of counter
- - occasionaly counter attack with your shield (prevent all dmg)
- - occasionaly retaliate with shield after not shielded attack, dmg varies with shield size/def
- - occasinaly retaliate on blocked attack
- Fencer
- aegis: back to 25mdt but added mdb/M evasion

[Yukichibi]

Please stop with cover, it's the most useless JA a tank need, you take damage, your enmity decrease, so when cover end, your enmity is lower than before, and the enmity of the one you covered is the same or higher if he cured you or deal damage.
If you want to help someone who got ass-kicked toss him a cure IV, his enmity will lower because he is taking damage, and yours will go up because you heal him.

Simply make enmity for PLD to go up instead of going down when he takes damage, and he will always almost be on the top of hate list. (and repair useless cover)

[hiko]

Please stop with cover, it's the most useless JA a tank need, you take damage, your enmity decrease, so when cover end, your enmity is lower than before, and the enmity of the one you covered is the same or higher if he cured you or deal damage.
If you want to help someone who got ass-kicked toss him a cure IV, his enmity will lower because he is taking damage, and yours will go up because you heal him.

Simply make enmity for PLD to go up instead of going down when he takes damage, and he will always almost be on the top of hate list. (and repair useless cover)

- fix cover so the covered guy is the one loosing CE!

[xiozen]

Please stop with cover, it's the most useless JA a tank need, you take damage, your enmity decrease, so when cover end, your enmity is lower than before, and the enmity of the one you covered is the same or higher if he cured you or deal damage.
If you want to help someone who got ass-kicked toss him a cure IV, his enmity will lower because he is taking damage, and yours will go up because you heal him.

Simply make enmity for PLD to go up instead of going down when he takes damage, and he will always almost be on the top of hate list. (and repair useless cover)

I like these suggestions. Yes, SE Paladin needs work... and the basic mechanics that govern enmity, enmity loss/gain, phy damage mitigation, phy damage reduction, (phy. damage resistance?)... should definitely be re-worked. I know the Empyrian armor address much of this at the +2 level, however I believe native to the job (traits) should incorporate adjustments on par with blink-tanking ---not the same as but very similar, with adjustments based on those areas I previously mentioned. Then you'll end up with a lvl 99 Paladin, with extremely HIGH phy dmg resistance, mitigation...etc. How about an ability to turn on a Paladin-Scherzo...? Or something similar... not game breaking but balanced for TANKING... don't forget about enmity while your looking at these adjustments.

Also add a "Provoke" ability with appropriate timer, similar to Warrior or adjust Flash so that it adds enmity on par with Provoke and reduce it's recast time.

Thanks for listening.

[xiozen]

Just had an idea to add a job ability that worked like this:

During a battle or fight... enmity will shift and jump around depending on numerous factors... however, with "Malignite Shift"...

This ability will remain in effect for 3mins with a 3min recast.
When active the Paladin's attack decreases equal to the amount of enmity currently shifted
this figure will change constantly while the ability is active, however enmity will never shift
from the Paladin... so it would work like this... Drk uses Souleater, Last Resort and Berserk and
uses a weaponskill doing 2500 pts of dmg. With "Malignite Shift" active, that enmity gained on the DRk
automatically shifts to the Paladin... on par w/ the amount of enmity gained, the paladin's attack
drops by a similar percentage, now if a WHM begins cure bombing the Paladin, the enmity gained
from the cure bombs, eventually overtake the enmity generated by the DRk but since "Malignite Shift" will
still be active, the Paladin will be able to maintain hate regardless.

[Czeph]

Having read through the entirety of this thread.......
I will speak from my experience of being a pld main in abyssea.
With strong DDs and nukers, it is possible to maintain hate on paladin if done correctly for a time(details have been discussed on numerous forums and in guides for a long time). The problem occurs when others reach the emnity cap and repeatedly produce spike damage or a mob decays hate at a ridiculous rate. Vorpal blade spam in place of atonement spam seems to work ok between 1000<3500(more 1-3k on serious nms), it does something towards balancing this out. Chant du cygne seems to be more consistant damagewise, producing 2-6k(more 1-5k on serious NMs) from a pld set up well for it.

Run the figures for mnk/nin and pld/nin tp feeding a mob, pld will feed less tp over the same ammount of time unless the mnk makes real effort to stack subtle blow.

The best idea I've seen here has been raising the VE cap slightly for paladin as a trait.
A native provoke ability and a second flash ability come a close joint second.
Increasing paladins damage output coming third.

My suggestion would be to:
1) give paladin fencer as a native job trait.
2) give enmity bonus as a native job trait as described in an earlier post.
3) add a migawari: ichi style ability or job trait or spell with an equal effect/duration/recast.
4) allow paladin the same kind of bonus from stats that 2handed weapon users enjoy for sword only.
5) a new cure spell for pld rdm and sch averaging about 1k.
6) a new divine magic based spell that will cause non-elemental magic damage.
7) repairing atonements damage, and raising it's damage cap.
8) some sort of swift blade damage modifier improvement.

All of the above may sound overpowered, but in practice, only good paladins would succeed from these adjustments. It would require some testing with these in effect.

Addressing other issues found in this post:
1) MNK does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
2) WAR does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
3) reguarding the above statements, I am talking about -control- not -generation-.
4) PLD is not useless in abyssea if played well, it covers all the same red triggers warrior does with the exception of scythe(and dagger if subbing war).
5) whatever they try will be adjusted if it is overpowered or underpowered.

Finally, I would like to point out that this is based of my experience doing regular events in abyssea and numerous pickup runs. I don't intend to belittle MNK or WAR as a tank as such, just point out that whilest popular oppinion is against PLD lately that doesn't mean it's right: people used to think the earth was flat(and some still do).

Paladin does however need a boost in some way, just a nudge of hate controlling power in some form.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[edit] just re-read a friends post on this subject, his proposed adjustments might be just the nudge paladin needs. I'd suggest reading "One Knight's advice" before bringing this thread any further.[/edit]

[Drivont]

Very true, I mean there are some way's to work around that, maybe raising the emn. cap, Making cover more usefull and letting you cover anyone in ally, adding spells like "Flash 2" lower recast then flash and generates more hate... There are a few "tweaks" they could implement to work well but I think at this point its more of a "Wait and see". I have to say though I don't have any complaint's when I get to tank NM's on warrior because of constant 5-6k ukko's furry

Yeah i was thinking like a rear facing, cone-based effect for covering

[GERM]

how bout just give a PLD an ability that when active all enmity is reduced to 0 to party members and transfered to PLD .. simple.. I still like an AoE version of the THF enmity steal abilities (cant think of what its called atm)

[thefinalrune]

how bout just give a PLD an ability that when active all enmity is reduced to 0 to party members and transfered to PLD .. simple.. I still like an AoE version of the THF enmity steal abilities (cant think of what its called atm)

I actually really like this idea. Since the enmity ceiling is so easily reached by DDs now this would serve greatly in PLD hate control. Make it like a level 50-60 ability with a 1-2min recast so that it can be used roughly once per battle. An AoE party enmity down effect would be great.

[brayen]

Having read through the entirety of this thread.......
I will speak from my experience of being a pld main in abyssea.
With strong DDs and nukers, it is possible to maintain hate on paladin if done correctly for a time(details have been discussed on numerous forums and in guides for a long time). The problem occurs when others reach the emnity cap and repeatedly produce spike damage or a mob decays hate at a ridiculous rate. Vorpal blade spam in place of atonement spam seems to work ok between 1000<3500(more 1-3k on serious nms), it does something towards balancing this out. Chant du cygne seems to be more consistant damagewise, producing 2-6k(more 1-5k on serious NMs) from a pld set up well for it.

Run the figures for mnk/nin and pld/nin tp feeding a mob, pld will feed less tp over the same ammount of time unless the mnk makes real effort to stack subtle blow.

The best idea I've seen here has been raising the VE cap slightly for paladin as a trait.
A native provoke ability and a second flash ability come a close joint second.
Increasing paladins damage output coming third.

My suggestion would be to:
1) give paladin fencer as a native job trait.
2) give enmity bonus as a native job trait as described in an earlier post.
3) add a migawari: ichi style ability or job trait or spell with an equal effect/duration/recast.
4) allow paladin the same kind of bonus from stats that 2handed weapon users enjoy for sword only.
5) a new cure spell for pld rdm and sch averaging about 1k.
6) a new divine magic based spell that will cause non-elemental magic damage.
7) repairing atonements damage, and raising it's damage cap.
8) some sort of swift blade damage modifier improvement.

All of the above may sound overpowered, but in practice, only good paladins would succeed from these adjustments. It would require some testing with these in effect.

Addressing other issues found in this post:
1) MNK does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
2) WAR does not have the same -control- of hate a good paladin has, in or out of abyssea.
3) reguarding the above statements, I am talking about -control- not -generation-.
4) PLD is not useless in abyssea if played well, it covers all the same red triggers warrior does with the exception of scythe(and dagger if subbing war).
5) whatever they try will be adjusted if it is overpowered or underpowered.

Finally, I would like to point out that this is based of my experience doing regular events in abyssea and numerous pickup runs. I don't intend to belittle MNK or WAR as a tank as such, just point out that whilest popular oppinion is against PLD lately that doesn't mean it's right: people used to think the earth was flat(and some still do).

Paladin does however need a boost in some way, just a nudge of hate controlling power in some form.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[edit] just re-read a friends post on this subject, his proposed adjustments might be just the nudge paladin needs. I'd suggest reading "One Knight's advice" before bringing this thread any further.[/edit]

I am going to disagree with most of what you are saying. 1k cure would be overpowered indeed something in the 650ish range would at least more balanced but not the biggest issue, i mean if we get a 1k cure w/ the right gear you are looking at 1200+, we are not looking to be a healer on pld at least, if anything i would say add something along the lines of what solace does to cures in where it helps mitigate some damage after a cure and/or generate more hate. pld can not hold better hate then mnk or war (these are only other jobs i can speak for that you made mention of) at the moment i am not sure where this is even coming from. Also a divine magic that does non elemental magic seems absurd lol maybe bring holy 2 out and make it actually worth something(i don't know enemity based dmg or something lol) unlike holy (totally worse spell i have ever seen) would be more sensible.

Personally i can't see boost pld damage without making it absurdly powerful job, which is why my earlier input was revolving on supporting dmg intake to the PLD's pt. The ideas of pld taking hate form his pt would not yield much of anything as 1 ws will easily rip hate right back, just how a thf at best makes a mob flinch and look away for a second before all hate is back to cap(in or out of abyssea)