Pld Emnity/hate distribution chages?

[brymstone]

it posted this in another thread already but it seems relevant here aswell

how about a job trait for pld so that buffs cast on said pld would last longer than normal
im thinking regen, refresh, protect, shell, haste, any barspells, phalanx, reprisal dunno maybe more bard songs? maybe even make them more potent

i thinks pld should have been the one to get fencer

changing cover is a great idea

[Ryx]

pld can not hold better hate then mnk or war (these are only other jobs i can speak for that you made mention of) at the moment i am not sure where this is even coming from.

Allow me to explain this one. What Cz was talking about was not about their ability to hold hate, but about their ability to control the monster. Having a War, Mnk, or any DD "tank" the monster results in a messy, Tp-spamming trainwreck waiting to happen. When you have the a Pld tanking, there is far less danger involved, because the Pld feeds signifigantly less Tp, takes none of the damage, and has tools to respond to shit-hits-fan situations. Nin *might* feed less TP than we do, because of Yurin, it's debateable, on the grounds of their attack rate, and that their evasion and shadows prevent mobs from gaining TP attacking them.

I agree to an extent about giving paladin a stronger cure risking us turned into a healer, but at the same time, I feel we need something stronger than Cure IV. Perhaps a take on whm afflatus, where our damage taken can be converted into cure potency, similiar to how solace cures are converted into holy damage.

Holy II being a spell form of Atonement is an interesting idea, and one I'm not necessarily opposed to.

Personally though, I think a lot of people here have suggested some absurd ideas, things that have the potential to go wayyy too far out of balance. Some sound good at a glance, but then you think of the reprecussions of them. I don't believe we should be requesting any abilities that take player skill & commitment out of the equation. Paladin should have an upper edge when it comes to tanking, but they need to work for it. A middle-class Paladin should NOT be able to keep hate off a high-class DD going all out right off the bat. Not even a high-class Paladin should be capable of doing that, in all honesty.

Try not to think only of Paladin, but how we're supposed to play & work with everyone else. A few subtle changes have the potential to go a long way, since the problems against us aren't quite as bad as people make them out to be. I know a lot of people are crying "Paladin is worthless!" over and over again. This is not true. Perhaps the people doing the crying are worthless on THEIR Paladins, but the job itself is not. I'm not going to say we fit into any of the cookie-cutter party setups right now, because abyssea has thrown the curve balls at us of !! triggers, and cruor/atma buffs, but that doesn't mean it's a bad job.

[Rambus]

Sorry, but it's true. I've got -50% mdt on war, which is exactly what you have with your shiny aegis. It's really not hard to cap mdt.

I have to agree with rog, that is why at this time there is nothing special about aegis. I specifically said Empyrean sword or sword/shield since the added effect on relic sword does not give you hate. The WS is not critical or give you double damage on melee swings like Empyrean sword is. To be a tank you need to keep hate and take damage well, not just take damage like you pointed out. Plus I can say I take 0 damage from thunder V because WHMs have a nice bar spell after effect. ( why are you getting hit by thunder V? I never seen anyone get hit with single target spells, sincee afterall you have mnk/nin, thf/nin or nin/war for tank)

I hope SE makes aegis and PLD better and effective to play Lutschfactor but that is not the case right now. I can say I can kill XXX in abyssea with 12 DNC but how effective is that?

[Unleashhell]

Something I would like to see, is some kind of TP return for Shield Bash. Being that shield bash does damage like a single weapon hit does I think a TP return maybe based on how much damage you do on shield bash would be nice to see. Obviously Aegis giving the highest TP return. It just a little something to help WS more for PLD, adding to hate control and also giving some sort of little benefit to actually being an Aegis holder myself. Like some of the previous posts other jobs can get mdt- very easily so it is not anything special to have -40% with Aegis at level 90. Also idk what SE was thinking with "Augments Shield Bash IV", its just a measly 20 more damage per upgrade. Such a waste of gil for dynamis to get it to 90 in hopes of some very nice 500-700 Shield bash at level 90.

I do agree with Flash II though. I think its very much needed. I would like to see some kind of ability to up cure potency that lasts maybe 5 or even 10 minutes. That would be another nice tool for PLD using Cure IV for hate. Being cure IV is very much outdated at this point and at 99 will be even more outdated they need to do something with the Enmity cures generate.

[rog]

why are you getting hit by thunder V? I never seen anyone get hit with single target spells, sincee afterall you have mnk/nin, thf/nin or nin/war for tank

because /nin is a terrible sub.

[Amoklauf]

I used to want blood/meat tanking to make a comeback, now I don't know why I cared. I guess it's just wanting everything to be viable. However, that's already kind of the case. It's starting to look like PLD can't be an optimal job choice unless DD's take a back seat.

Anyway, just throwing this out there: how about mobs getting severely reduced TP from hitting a PLD? TP drain on attacks. Light based version of absorb tp? I dunno, just trying to think of way PLD can add something defensive without it being much like PDT or MDT, because that's no longer special or in low supply. I know some people don't think anything defensive will help PLD's cause, but I feel like this would be a welcome addition when/if the game's emphasis moves out of abyssea.

[Dracoth]

If PLD had the reverse of Subtle Blow going for it... That's an interesting idea. The mob would gain less tp from hitting the PLD than it otherwise would, meaning the one source of TP that most mobs have (and why Evasion tanks do really well on most NMs) would be reduced. It still wouldn't be as bad as missing entirely, so Evasion tanking would still have its strong point, but it would give an incentive to use a PLD. It would, of course, work far better if the PLD got that TP itself. Maybe with the shield block - the amount of extra TP the PLD gets comes at the expense of the mob's TP gain?

[Kavik]

I have had similar discussions in my ls with our mages (mainly one who thinks he is the god of all whms and in truth i think he sucks, but that is another story) my solution was similar to pld getting its own provoke, currently even using invincible (which is another gripe because they gave the same damn thing ((only better mind you)) to blms i.e. Mana Wall and it does not make u invincible it does the largely the same thing as perfect dodge becuase if u get hit with a spell you're still dead) I believe pld should have an end all be all hate getter JA, in which NOTHING will pull hate off the pld, and i already KNOW SE can do this because there is an NM in wajaom woodlands that already DOES. If you have never met him, he's an aptant dropping flea that will not attack anyone else but the person who aggro'd him, (since he's a flea and you have to aggro him before he is targetable) until that person is dead, then he moves to the next person with hate until everyone is either dead or he is. So I see no reason that this would not be possible, it would make pld's useful again as a tank, and not abnormally effect the other jobs in the game. If you want to hp tank some NM with a mnk by all means take you're mnk nin blue whatever and tank away with damage etc (i also eva tank on thf and my hate controlling ability makes me a good one, but i love pld and since it is the only job dedicated to tanking i beleive it should be the BEST and it is ridiculous that half the jobs in the game have some form of hate control while the main tank in the game gets next to nothing, and what it does have has rediculous delays even with merits.). But if you have a pld they should be able to tank the mob no matter cures/nukes/dmg is done to the mob from the party. It could even be meritable giving pld's some flexibilty. As as 90 sch and 90 whm i prefer to cure one person over 18.

[brayen]

hate is not the main prblem. who would invite a pld to hold hate when you can keep hate on 1 ddtank and get the job 4x faster with a tiny bit more risk? need to drop the notion of "needing hate" i am unsure why that is such a concern in this thread? while i think giving pld a slightly higher hate limit is good i dont see the need for a provoke hate tool. some improvement in offensive some better supportive defensive capabilities and maybe slightly higher hate cap is what should be focused on.

[Charismatic]

Honestly, the biggest change that needs to be made to Paladin is that it needs to be made into a DD that can also tank. I know that sounds weird given what Paladin has been. But really, that's what the game's been shifting toward for a long time now. Abyssea has only sped up the process.
What'd be interesting is if they could make Paladin a damage dealer with its own niche. Perhaps a way to deal substantial damage to an enemy utilizing tools that already exist in a Paladin's arsenal simply by changing the effects. Perhaps Paladin could get traits that change the effects of spells we already currently use such as flash (who is to say that we couldn't get a trait that adds a very potent DoT to Flash?)

Anyway, it'd be quite the bummer if they just increased the Paladin job's potency with the sword and didn't really add anything unique to the job but that would certainly fix the real issue the job is facing because there's already plenty of ways to shift hate onto a Paladin, it's just that most of the time there's no need to even bother.