Dear SE: STOP AVOIDING IT.

[RAIST]

I've never been to a group event other than Walk of Echoes where summoners ever needed to pull hate off anything. And in Walk of Echoes, it's all summoners and beastmasters, so if one pet doesn't have hate, it's another. This issue only really manifests in solo play and occasionally in Rieves.

Regardless, this isn't a summoner specific issue.

I never said a SMN NEEDED to pull hate. I said it CAN pull hate like it always has. And also, I already noted it isn't a SMN related issue, but this thread is about SMN.

The problem now is that pet jobs can make it easier to scatter hate. The new imbalance between pet and master hate generation is causing too many problems across the board in the new, more relevant content...to the point that pets grabbing hate sometimes causes more problems than it ever has before.

Pet jobs can actually screw up a fight now because once the hate is taken and then lost to the pet, hate now has an even greater opportunity to scatter. In the case of SMN, when the master winds up seating the top of the hate list even briefly, they get pummeled...couple that with the new ATT/DEF adjustments, it puts them in considerable jeopardy after just a few hits (crappy armor). Then they have to be rebuffed/regened/cured/etc., which can cause more hate spiking according to who is doing what. And round and round it goes. Already had to redo fights and have the pet jobs just sit there and basically do nothing for long stretches. How does that encourage use of a jobs, when you know you will have to tell them to sit there like a knot on a log?

And I know it's not just SMN...PUP has issues with hate with some of their Auto's. Put them both in a party, both facing the hate issues...oh boy. But again, this thread is about SMN, so was commenting mostly on just experiences with SMN.

This is why (in the scope of what's new) pet jobs are becoming less affective than before--they pose a greater risk. In older content where there is less danger in the first place, may not be as much of an impact. But in the NEW content...it IS a problem that NEEDS to be addressed.

[Alhanelem]

Pets arent the only things adversely affected by the enmity adjustments. I'm sure they are continuing to look at the issue and as I said, this isn't a SMN specific issue, in a thread complaining about how inferior SMN is to other pet jobs- which is just untrue.

[RAIST]

Pets arent the only things adversely affected by the enmity adjustments. I'm sure they are continuing to look at the issue and as I said, this isn't a SMN specific issue, in a thread complaining about how inferior SMN is to other pet jobs- which is just untrue.

But a lot of what is wrong with SMN is tied to what the OP is talking about. Weak stats cause the avatars to bleed their hate a lot faster than before. Meanwhile, the master appears to be able to generate hate at an accelerated rate (but this may be due to the imbalances now). Having weak stats on the avatars also affects their ability to generate hate as effectively as well. Tweaking avatars to make them more effective in combat could go a long way to alleviating some of the problem. If an avatar is able to better maintain hate over it's master, a lot of the issue is resolved.

[Jaall]

I actually think the only job truly neglected in this game is DRG, for reasons I really don't know. SMN isn't all that bad and does get asked for in a lot of events and like people have said, WoE is one of the places where SMN shines. DRG on the other hand is never asked for and has no true distinct advantage or at least a place where its one advantage (wyvern heals) is particularly useful, and yet SE will not improve the job. The most we've seen for DRG since 2007 was extra jumps which are effectively just revamps of the old ones that share the same timer, and a couple more pet abilities that allow us to control it more as the pet it is. I do like these updates but what I'm saying is you complain about SMN being the only job neglected along with RDM but there are a few others out there who have it a whole lot worse. You see people shouting for a SMN occasionally but I doubt you've ever seen someone actively shouting for a DRG.

[Alhanelem]

But a lot of what is wrong with SMN is tied to what the OP is talking about.

I understand this, but it's NOT A SUMMONER SPECIFIC ISSUE. It affects all pet jobs. It's also not a design decision for the job, but rather a bug / unintended side effect of non-job-specific adjustments.

Looks like you are taking away 3 spells, not one, and you are taking away the main feature of the job, curing, making your party immune to most damage and ailment is not the main feature of SMN as a job, it is the feature of Alexander, a single summon out of the 19 we currently have. I hope you see the difference here. Take away Cure 6 and WHM is still awesome because of stoneskin cures. WHM is not only good because of C5, C6, or AS, its used for multiple reasons, they are just a few of them.

You (and the people who 'liked' your post) missing the point. The quantity of things taken away is irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with expecting people to have all their important spells and abilities- Whether it's one, three, ten, or a hundred.

How many dice do CORs use on a regular basis? just a few. How many indi/geo spells is GEO likely to use? just a few. SMN has no more right to complain about this than any other job.

Also, it's not like nothing else the SMN does while in that party giving PD will be useful at all.

[RAIST]

I understand this, but it's NOT A SUMMONER SPECIFIC ISSUE. It affects all pet jobs. It's also not a design decision for the job, but rather a bug / unintended side effect of non-job-specific adjustments.

Actually, yes there is a SMN specific issue at play here (and it does fit within the scope of the OP). Avatars have not scaled anywhere near as well as the other pet jobs, and thus they are more dramatically affected by the change. Fix the scaling issue with SMN pets, and a large part of the problem goes away.

For instance, even though other pet jobs have issues with enmity generation and decay, they have more effective ways of managing it (Snarl, etc.)...whereas SMN has nothing outside of their BP's. If someone can't get hate back fast enough, and their BP doesn't get them out of a fix (if it is even available when needed, seeing how that is part of what creates the problem), they are screwed. They can't survive nearly as long as other jobs when they are getting beat on, and they have virtually no reliable way to shed/transfer hate. This alone puts them on absurdly unequal footing in regards to the other jobs so greatly affected by these adjustments.

SE needs to either balance it for all jobs to put them on more equal footing again (fixing avatar stats can go a long way towards this end), or they need to implement a specific fix for SMN, because SMN has a unique disadvantage in this department compared to all the others.

[Alhanelem]

Actually, yes there is a SMN specific issue at play here (and it does fit within the scope of the OP). Avatars have not scaled anywhere near as well as the other pet jobs, and thus they are more dramatically affected by the change. Fix the scaling issue with SMN pets, and a large part of the problem goes away.

It's NOT a summoenr specific issue- it's an issue with the enmity system as a whole, and when they fix the enmity issues, the SMN issue will go away. I totally agree it's CAUSES problems for SMN, but the root issue here is not SMN itself. It's the enmity system. Also you say it affects SMN more than the other pets, well that's poppycock. The only reason it doesn't affect PUP so greatly is Ventriloqouy and you don't typically try to make the pet tank in the first place.

THAT's what I'm saying. It's not intended to screw summoner, the changes weren't targeting it, it's simply poor planning/testing on their part.

This BUG also has nothing to do with why the OP was saying SMN sucks and is worse than the other pet jobs.

[Jackstin]

Guyz this is a serious discussion. You can tell because of the CAPITALISATION of certain WORDS.

Clearly Summoner is a neglected job, it's amazing that Al is arguing this.

On the other hand there are plenty of neglected jobs. I myself play as Dragoon and whilst I actually think with the right gear set up it can be a decent DD and an excellent speed-solo job, it can definitely be a bit gimp when it comes to party play.

That's why I also play WHM and THF. This game is now a multi-job game. No one is expecting you to level everything, but it's not beyond expectation that you should have 2 or 3 jobs with semi-decent gear.

[Karbuncle]

This is not directed at you Jack, But I'd like to mention if BST, PUP, or any of the other Neglected Jobs want to complain about their Neglect, they have a subforum for that. Don't need it shitting up the SMN Neglect thread, ya'll can make your own "We're neglected" threads.

I've mentioned this before, Just because there are multiple jobs that suck doesn't mean it has to become a "MY JOB SUCKS WORSE" debate every time one of them makes some noise.

SMN sucks, Perfect Defense is the Duck Tape holding the job together, with Shock Squall being a smidge of Super-Glue inbetween a crack. The job sucks. Offensively, defensively, everything about it is awful.

[Alhanelem]

Clearly Summoner is a neglected job, it's amazing that Al is arguing this.

Summoner is not a neglected job. The job has seen tons of changes and updates over the years- probably more than most jobs. It's getting its fair share of attention. Whether that attention is producing the desired results is a matter of opinion, but it's laughable at best to argue that it's "neglected."

the word "neglected" implies that they have been completely ignoring it and making no changes, which really isn't true at all.

SMN sucks, Perfect Defense is the Duck Tape holding the job together, with Shock Squall being a smidge of Super-Glue inbetween a crack. The job sucks. Offensively, defensively, everything about it is awful.

If it was so awful it wouldn't be so instrumental in certain events e.g. walk of echoes where PD isn't even why it's there. Exaggerating will not get the job improvements. Also, if it was really so "awful", you wouldn't be playing it (and calling yourself the "realer summoner").

The only problem that SMN truly has that is directly about SMN is the BP timer. it is capped at such a ridiculously high level at a time when the game is at its spammiest. There are plenty of useful ward effects available.

SMN has its issues, but it's not "awful."