Remove the knockback attacks in Rieves

[Luvbunny]

I wouldn't really call rieves "endgame." I think we've got some time to wait, never said we wouldn't. You don't release all your content at once or people will grow bored too fast.

That early phase 1 endgame is out there:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...dly-Skirmishes

Accessing it seems not yet known, need to whack more roots to find out. With the current reives still under testing, and enmity not yet adjusted, less players will venture out, which could mean locking this content out for awhile. Let's not forget WoTG, a couple of BCNMs are no longer accessible ever since no one is doing anything in the past.

[Horadrim]

Wait wait wait wait... the guy who white knights EVERYTHING SE does, is upset about something SE designed... has the world flipped upside down? (he is right though, I never thought I would say that)

...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/mfw-producti...medium/143.jpg

Grow up.
Being reasonable and supportive against a historically hyper negative community doesn't make you a white knight. The only reason that's even a term is because FFXI players are so unreasonably negative about EVERYTHING that as soon as you try to present a logically passive or hopeful position you're suddenly trying to pretend you're SE-Man Savior of the Vanadielaverse.

Over the years I've seen him here and on KI, Alhanelem has been plenty judgmental and negative when there's justification to be -- he just also has the mental capacity to be passive and patient with the development of the game.. which you'd expect (but surprisingly don't get) of anyone who's been at it for as long as I assume he has (which is likely as long as I have.)

All of that is to say, cut the BS. It is bad enough that we have to deal with SE developing and releasing content blindly without even playing the game to understand what it needs -- we don't need everyone in the community shamelessly attacking each other like it benefits ANYONE at all. I know I'm guilty of it myself, but at least I'm willing to admit that it is stupid, adolescent behavior and aspire to get past it.

If you don't have a productive response (be it for or against what someone has to say), GTFO. We don't need more drama and BS, we've got 10 years of backlog we're trudging through already.

On Topic:

I've never really liked knockback as a mechanic at all... with FFXI's dated engine it has always felt a bit trite.

[Karah]

Sorry, but you look at the last 1000~ posts by him, every single one of them previous was blindly agreeing with and arguing against anything a player complained/posted about.

Regardless of what was said prior to that, that qualifies you as "white knight" and deserves every little bit of mockery that comes with it.

However, not related to the topic, so should not continue this, (no point anyway you're wrong).

Relevant:

Never been a fan of knockback moves, but it's a logical mechanic. It's an effective method of spell interruption and one of the only ways to interrupt mob bards (enemies cause their resist silence actually works....) etc, its the range of the battlefield that should be adjusted, not the logical mechanic.

[Horadrim]

Sorry, but you look at the last 1000~ posts by him, every single one of them previous was blindly agreeing with and arguing against anything a player complained/posted about.

Regardless of what was said prior to that, that qualifies you as "white knight" and deserves every little bit of mockery that comes with it.

However, not related to the topic, so should not continue this, (no point anyway you're wrong).

Relevant:

Never been a fan of knockback moves, but it's a logical mechanic. It's an effective method of spell interruption and one of the only ways to interrupt mob bards (enemies cause their resist silence actually works....) etc, its the range of the battlefield that should be adjusted, not the logical mechanic.

Yeah, because that's the whole point of what I said. You're a useful person and we need more of you in this world. Definitely.

If the justification for Knockback is the spell interruption component they could easily apply mostly the same animations and mechanics, but remove the actual movement and just call it "stagger." Same goal achieved minus the annoyance of getting flung in disorienting fashion on a game which always seemed to have in-battle movement operate as an after thought (there's something to be said about how oddly the game handles movement during combat even to this day.)

[Karah]

Don't know about you, but if something is trying to kill me, whatever it is, the logical thing to do is keep it at distance. (or try to kill it better than it can kill you lol)

That's what knockback is, the logical action of a foe. As I said, I can't stand knockback, I very much despise having to adjust my mule's distance when main gets knocked back, but I understand why it's there.

[Horadrim]

Don't know about you, but if something is trying to kill me, whatever it is, the logical thing to do is keep it at distance. (or try to kill it better than it can kill you lol)

That's what knockback is, the logical action of a foe. As I said, I can't stand knockback, I very much despise having to adjust my mule's distance when main gets knocked back, but I understand why it's there.

If you go at a tiger with a dagger, I have my distinct doubts it is going to try and push you away before it goes for your throat. Same with any wild animal -- maybe they'll try to run away if they are losing, but that's a different thing entirely.

Arguably, the "stagger" effect I outlined above fills the same purpose you proposed for knockback, but without the inconvenience of ruining your orientation the way the knock back currently does. I mean -- it is sort of a whatever most of the time, but when there's an invisible ring that can get you banned from an event like the way reives work, there's more reason to find an alternative to achieve the goal of disrupting ability and spell activation than there is in support of its use.

People can say "don't stand near the edge of the reive line" but it is pretty easy to run out of space if you're trying to avoid just standing directly on top of other people.

[Karah]

Knocking someone out of the assigned combat area is not a new thing, get over it.

Make the battlefield larger, not eliminate knock back /thread.

[Alhanelem]

...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/mfw-producti...medium/143.jpg

Grow up.
Being reasonable and supportive against a historically hyper negative community doesn't make you a white knight. The only reason that's even a term is because FFXI players are so unreasonably negative about EVERYTHING that as soon as you try to present a logically passive or hopeful position you're suddenly trying to pretend you're SE-Man Savior of the Vanadielaverse.

Over the years I've seen him here and on KI, Alhanelem has been plenty judgmental and negative when there's justification to be -- he just also has the mental capacity to be passive and patient with the development of the game.. which you'd expect (but surprisingly don't get) of anyone who's been at it for as long as I assume he has (which is likely as long as I have.)

All of that is to say, cut the BS. It is bad enough that we have to deal with SE developing and releasing content blindly without even playing the game to understand what it needs -- we don't need everyone in the community shamelessly attacking each other like it benefits ANYONE at all. I know I'm guilty of it myself, but at least I'm willing to admit that it is stupid, adolescent behavior and aspire to get past it.

If you don't have a productive response (be it for or against what someone has to say), GTFO. We don't need more drama and BS, we've got 10 years of backlog we're trudging through already.

On Topic:

I've never really liked knockback as a mechanic at all... with FFXI's dated engine it has always felt a bit trite.

Thanks for being a voice of reason.

Sorry, but you look at the last 1000~ posts by him, every single one of them previous was blindly agreeing with and arguing against anything a player complained/posted about.

This is completely untrue. Not regularly having the popular opinion doesn't make me a white knight. I've agreed and disagreed with all kinds of different things- and not just for the sake of doing so. I really feel like you just need someone to pick on.

I do not blindly defend anyone or anything. I have reasoning behind every post I make. I'm really tired of being bashed just because I post a lot. All of the comments and opinions I post are genuine. I'm not here to troll, I'm not here to argue for the sake of it, I'm here because I care about the things that are being discussed and have a genuine interest in the game and it's future. If you can't accept that, then you should block list me now instead of continuing to attack me.

Apparently to not be a white knight I have to blindly join in agreeing with every SE bash thread and agreeing with every suggestion everyone makes. To do otherwise makes one a white knight apparently.

Knocking someone out of the assigned combat area is not a new thing, get over it.

This is not a tournament fighter arena. This is a battle to colonize the wilderness. In reality there would be no hard-line battle area boundry at all. the countdown and ban is there to punish people who bail out of a Rieve- not to allow the opponents to win a battle by a referee calling "RING OUT!"

(Now, I don't see why someone would argue against the premise of this thread personally, but you don't see me attacking them or calling them a white knight just because their opinion differs from mine- I respect the fact that different people will have different opinions on issues.)

[Karah]

(Now, I don't see why someone would argue against the premise of this thread personally)

I did agree with you, on page one, that a change indeed needs to be made, however, knockback is not the way to go about this.

FFXI has had knock back since day one in the form of Goblin Rush (as far as I can recall) they didn't just add it for Reives it's not going to change, hate to be the barer of bad news.

This is not a tournament fighter arena. This is a battle to colonize the wilderness. In reality there would be no hard-line battle area boundry at all. the countdown and ban is there to punish people who bail out of a Rieve- not to allow the opponents to win a battle by a referee calling "RING OUT!"

Basically every (non-zone-wide) event that has been added since WotG has had a boundary line. Dynamis NMs, FoV NMs, Voidwatch, Level sync even has a "range" within where it's affects work, Spheres upon gear, Aura's, even Geo itself has boundaries inherent to it's job. It's the way the game is played now, within "Arena's" that do have (Ring-outs).

It is -literally- a battle arena, the Epitome of one in fact. Where the enemies can in fact defeat you with a Ring-out.

If you are fighting on the edge of the arena, you're the moron getting support jobs killed when you die (not you specifically... but you, as part of a group apparently) and you deserve to lose credit for that Reive.

That's not to say that a strategic retreat is sometimes necessary.

[Alhanelem]

Basically every (non-zone-wide) event that has been added since WotG has had a boundary line.

I understand this, but most of these battles give you plenty of room. Also, these battles are not intiated by a party and shouldn't be subject to such rules. Campaign battles worked fine without a radius you couldnt step out of. The only reason that's a problem here is because there are multiple seperate battles occuring potentially at the same time.

You of all people should understand that you can't always get everyone to cooperate with you, and you can end up getting pushed out/kicked out

But for me the main issue is when a knockback attack kills you- MOST of the time if you're just knocked back, you can run back inside just fine. the problem is mostly when you die- you can not raise up and get back in within 5 seconds.

Like I said, I can understand punishing people for abandoning a rieve, but 99% of the people getting slapped with 10 minute bans were not trying to flee the area.

I don't care much for the specific method of addressing the issue, as long as something is done to make it a little more forgiving. It would also help a lot if the battle area was actually clearly marked instead of having to feel around for the edge of it. A line needs to be drawn between players trying to abuse the system (thus deserving the ban) and those who accidentally leave/are pushed out of the area.

(10 seconds? 30 seconds? warning radius then a larger actual ban radius? Exempt KO'd players from the 5 second rule?)

It is -literally- a battle arena, the Epitome of one in fact. Where the enemies can in fact defeat you with a Ring-out.

The thing is, while it is, it really shouldn't be. it doesn't make any sort of in-world logical lore or gameplay sense. So you could say I agree with you in terms of the way things technically are currently- just not how they should be, in my humble opinion.