Enmity imbalance?

[Zagen]

DD won't be killed ? That's weird, cause a lot of people doesn't seem to like MNKs and DRKs taking hits for 600-800 dmg because of the atk/def update.

I'm guessing they don't know what -PDT or -MDT sets macros are for... I'm guessing you're referencing Oddwaffle's post with your numbers notice how the MNK is taking 600-800 while the WHM takes half that? Should bring up some red flags that lead to questions such as:

1) Is Countersance up?
2) Is the MNK in any -PDT gear?
3) Is the WHM in -PDT gear?

Yeah DEF matters a bit more now than it did before the update but it still matters less than proper gear swapping into PDT/MDT sets.

By the way, this very thread complains about healers who frequently steals hate over DD, so capping hate is not as easy as you think. And if Cure will get you that much enmity over DPS, I wonder...

There's no such thing as crap players... (Sarcasm if you can't tell) Can I get to the hate cap as a healer faster? Sure, doesn't mean I get there and stay there much of the time. Don't get me wrong if I screw up or the mob decides to be an asshole with certain TP moves over others I can end up dead more often but that's generally on longer fights or when we're unprepared for stuff.

Who can Cure others to gain enmity ?
Who has a lot of defensive buffs to survive hits even with the recent adjustments ?
Who even used to sub WAR to have access to usefull hate tool like Provoke and Warcry ?
Who doesn't depend greatly on DPS to maintain their hate ?

Totally MNK, DRK and THF, right !

Who can do math? If you can then go look up FFXI Enmity table. When you compare the damage numbers remember to reduce that total by 70%. What you'll find is that dealing damage is still the best way to keep hate. Sure Provoke and Flash got a boost as quick ways to get closer to the cap at the start of the fight or after hate reset but they're still just as useless as they were before when trying to stay at the top of the hate list when compared to damage dealing.

The only reason a PLD will take notably less damage than a DD is because of the shield they're using, Ochain's near capped block rate or Aegis allowing for -85% MDT. The thing is that still doesn't address the issue of how dealing damage is still the best way to keep hate.

[Himrik]

Yes, I can do the math.
DPS was great to grab hate not for the VE part, but for the CE.

CE gain per damage was 1.25 on a level 95 mobs, and 1.29 on a lvl91. So, let's assume it would be 1.21 on a lvl100 mob, and even less on IT mob.
Now, let's take 30% of that...0.363. Ouch

Now, let's see the enmity for damage taken, for which no adjustment was officialy made. With a Max HP of 1300, you'll lose 1.385 CE per damage taken. If you want to maintain hate, you'll have to hit four times harder than the mob.
And with the atk/def adjustment, I'm pretty sure that's not the case outside of WS.

As for the VE, you should gain approximately 1.08 per damage (3.6*0.3 on a level 100 mob) and you lost it at 60/tick (No adjustment was announced for that too).

So basically, you'll lost VE really naturraly, and CE too, if you take high damage.

A tank takes less damage par hit, has more hate tool, and can use it more frequently than WS, so no, I don't think DD are still THE best way to maintain hate, without even arguig about staying alive or burning down the healer's MP.

[Zagen]

Yes, I can do the math.
DPS was great to grab hate not for the VE part, but for the CE..

Using your 0.363 as it is likely correct or there about. Also let's use 100 damage per hit, simple number and I feel fairly attainable by a PLD on a lot of content.
Also using Almace.
Having capped gear and magical Haste.
0.363 * 100 = 36.3 CE every 1.17 seconds

Let's look at Cure IV for gaining CE in comparison assuming 0.575 CE based on numbers from this post showing numbers up to level 90. I'm not sure what a PLD can get Cure IV up to but I think 600 seems fair with skill and gear.
0.575 * 600 = 345 CE every 8 seconds (factors casting time, recast, and magic delay)

In 8 seconds melee hits will have done 248~ CE generation. In those 8 seconds you gained 41 TP (assumes 0 STP). Let's push it out to 3 Cures to allow enough time for a full TP cycle.

Cure IVs: 345 * 3 = 1,035 CE
Melee: 248~ * 3 = 744~ CE
TP gained: 123

Your WS would have to generate 291 or less CE to be worse than cure spamming. So if your WS does less than around 800 damage you're better off curing.

Now here's the kicker while I used no +Enmity for the cures how many DD do you know who do so little damage or don't try to pop a WS right at 100% instead of sitting on TP?

[Demon6324236]

I'm not sure what a PLD can get Cure IV up to but I think 600 seems fair with skill and gear.

Just to say, your average PLD can probably cure around 550~600, if you are truly geared for curing then a PLD can cure others for around 750~800 I think, and I know they can cure themselves for more than 900.

[Himrik]

Now here's the kicker while I used no +Enmity for the cures how many DD do you know who do so little damage or don't try to pop a WS right at 100% instead of sitting on TP?

Indeed you didn't use Enmity gear. And that can change the situation a lot. Let's say the PLD cures with Enmity +50 (Not that hard), he will gain 1552 CE in a full TP circle.

Assuming the DD doesn't use enmity gear (Since he shouldn't), he's still at 744 CE, so the difference is now 808 CE.
For your WS to place you over the tank, you need to do at least 2225 dmg.

As for DD who like spamming weapon skills, after getting a good slap from NMs, maybe they'll learn a little strategy.

[Zagen]

Indeed you didn't use Enmity gear. And that can change the situation a lot. Let's say the PLD cures with Enmity +50 (Not that hard), he will gain 1552 CE in a full TP circle.

Assuming the DD doesn't use enmity gear (Since he shouldn't), he's still at 744 CE, so the difference is now 808 CE.
For your WS to place you over the tank, you need to do at least 2225 dmg.

As for DD who like spamming weapon skills, after getting a good slap from NMs, maybe they'll learn a little strategy.

I like how you used 100 damage for what a DD would do... If you think that's how little damage a DD does I can see why you think cures are a good idea for hate.

[saevel]

So... much ... wrong ...

Holding back ....

[Zagen]

So... much ... wrong ...

Holding back ....

If you mean my numbers I'd rather you not hold back, point out my mistakes so I can learn from them.

[saevel]

If you mean my numbers I'd rather you not hold back, point out my mistakes so I can learn from them.

Not you, the ignorant one.

The update reduced both damage and cure CE / VE valued by the same .3 multiplier.

To a level 99 target hate went from 0.465 CE per 1HP to 0.139 CE per 1HP. VE is just CE x 6 for a new value of 0.834 VE per HP cured. A 800HP cure IV will generate 112 CE and 668 VE, a 400 HP Cure III will generate 56 CE and 334VE. In contrast a Cure V for ~any~ HP will generate *drum roll* 400 CE and 700 VE. Everyone read that right, Cure V now generates more enmity per HP healed then Cure III / IV, that is why so many WHM's who relied on it are having hate issues. Also remember Cure III / IV give hate for actual HP healed not total potential HP. "Cure Cheat" only works if someone can force their HP low enough that they get the fully enmity from the cure, this is why it was largely abandoned as a tactic.

CE from damage done is based on target level, so the monsters level. The higher level the monster the lower the value and it seems to go on a slope of about -0.012~0.014 per level after 90. So a monster at level 105 would have a CE value of 1.11 CE + 3.33 VE per damage done. After the update it would be 0.33 CE and 1.0VE per damage done.

Knowing that we can see how much hate is produced from one set of TP + WS. An average DD can WS once every 15~20s depending on buffs. With a 7-hit (again average, or slightly below average DD) your looking at 6 melee hits + WS damage. Lets do an average WS of ~2000 (kinda weak but whatever). Six hits at 200 each comes to 396 CE and 1200 VE, the 2000 WS adds 660 CE and 2000 VE for a combined damage hate of 1056 CE and 3200 VE. That's in ~20s.

Now a good DD that has a BRD buffing them will go WAY beyond the above numbers. On a level 120 target with CDB my averages were 283 damage per swing, 3224 per WS and ~8s between WS's.

Finally DD have thing known as a "ohh sh!t, please don't die" gear set. We've had that since 2004, though back then it was mostly +evasion or +defense and largely ineffective. From Abyssea into Voidwatch there has been a crap ton of PDT/MDT gear sets released, there is no excuse for DD's to not have at least 25% PDT and 40~50% MDT. The two highest DD's actually have it the best, they have better defense options then anyone else (sans shields). Personally I now have 47% PDT, 50% MDT 25% haste (capped 25%) with a 6-hit for AM up on WAR. DRK's can do the same thing with Apoc.

So the idea of DD's "dieing left and right" is utter silliness.

[Zagen]

Thank you for writing that out, I must have missed the cure hate nerf part though that explains why I haven't noticed issues on SCH (my preferred healer option).