Enmity imbalance?

[saevel]

There is an issue 100%, but the issue is built into the system, not a result of some bug with pets. Doing testing tonight in Abyssea, I found that my avatar could not hold aggro with auto attacks on most mobs. With me sitting around doing nothing beyond the initial assault command, the avatar doesn't hold hate.

Why you ask? They rely on damage for creating aggro. They are currently, against a lot of mobs, losing more hate from being attacked than they are making with their auto attacks, causing them to quickly fall behind everything else. One ability every 45 seconds isn't enough damage to hold threat for another entire 45 seconds in a lot of situations.

Someone didn't sit down and do the math on how much hate an avatar would lose per second versus how much hate they would create per second from auto attacking in a lot of situations.

I had zero issues holding aggro as WAR or BLU while dual boxing salvage II or screwing around in abyssea doing trials.

A 70% reduction in hate from damage still leaves it as the highest source of hate by a long shot. I've run the math, hate is still easy to hold if someone actually does research and learns the hate system. Pets I can't really comment on as I don't play pet jobs through I can see a gimp melee BLM being unable to hold hate (what most avatars actually are). Remember the CE you lose from damage remains the same as before so your pet is losing it's CE just as fast as it's creating it. Thankfully most other players have damage outputs higher then a gimp melee BLM.

[detlef]

woah woah woah cool your jets there pal, many of us who know how to play our mage jobs and excel(sp?) at them have to now worry about hate we NEVER had to deal with before? so in your eyes that means we have to learn how to play mage jobs right?
I don't think you understand what the situation is here, the FACT is the Emnity system is broken,

we shouldn't be pulling hate off the tank with something as simple as paralyze or stoneskin as long as the tank has established sufficient hate.

but the problem is just that, they threw this in there without actually fully testing the results.

and they are going to fix this at the end of the month? this will probably also happen without fully testing it.
I cant be the only one wondering "why aren't they using the test server?"

Uh hello, that's not something I'm saying. Reread it, I'm paraphrasing statements made by many other posters. Your post is agreeing with me 100% that things are happening that shouldn't be happening.

[Himrik]

The reality is that almost any melee job can tank (or could) and there is (was) nothing wrong with that.

Ultimately wrong. Any melee job couldn't tank since there are jobs specifically designed to tank.
It's not Abyssea that redefined who can and can't tank, it's the bad enmity system that wasn't designed to such high DPS.

Next time, you'll claim that every mage could main heal a PT...

[saevel]

Ultimately wrong. Any melee job couldn't tank since there are jobs specifically designed to tank.
It's not Abyssea that redefined who can and can't tank, it's the bad enmity system that wasn't designed to such high DPS.

Next time, you'll claim that every mage could main heal a PT...

*Whistle*
SMN/WHM...

[Hawklaser]

That's very odd. I did go to Abyssea as summoner, Leviathan was able to hold aggro just fine with one Grandfall doing 2-3k damage. I was free to cast cure, self buffs, and whack the mob without getting the hate shifted back. I did test as bst + blm duo and Dipper Yully easily hold aggro vs Amhuluk, not once the hate is shifted. Nothing overtly wonky happening in Abyssea so far, seems everything working as intended lol. On the plus note, if you can get your defense way up there, Abyssea is even more easier now. Bring some defense food, your smn may need it

Might be due to different mob levels, as I recall the note stating the enmity changes started around lv 50 content, and got scaled up with level. Its so noticable in adoulin because every thing appears to be 100+ mobs. Where as the mob level range in abyssea is all over the place.

[Himrik]

*Whistle*
SMN/WHM...

That's your definition of "every mage" ?
And I won't even ask in what event you really can main heal without higher tier Cures or Curagas.

And since people complain about having to sub WAR or DNC to keep hate, it's bad that you're forced to sub WHM to main heal.

[detlef]

Ultimately wrong. Any melee job couldn't tank since there are jobs specifically designed to tank.
It's not Abyssea that redefined who can and can't tank, it's the bad enmity system that wasn't designed to such high DPS.

Next time, you'll claim that every mage could main heal a PT...

What situation are you talking about? I'm talking about Salvage, Abyssea, that kind of thing. I'm not talking about Legion or any level 75 content.

[Hawklaser]

Ultimately wrong. Any melee job couldn't tank since there are jobs specifically designed to tank.
It's not Abyssea that redefined who can and can't tank, it's the bad enmity system that wasn't designed to such high DPS.

Next time, you'll claim that every mage could main heal a PT...

Lets see, Whm, Rdm, Smn, Sch, were all expected to be able to main heal parties, and were able to back in the day. I'm sure a few Blm's got asked to main heal groups too. So... I guess that just leaves Blu for the mages, and would not be surprised at all if some have been asked to be a healer for a group, just the smart blu's just kept doing whatever they were doing. Granted this would apply more to pre-abyssea stuff but it was there. Wasn't going to touch this earlier cause Smn/whm is the prime example of expecting any mage to main heal.

But back to jobs that can tank, any melee *can* tank, doesn't make it a good idea though, same applies to mages and healing. Really the main reason Pld and Nin are the go to tanks, is not because of how well they can hold agro alone but how well they can mitigate incoming damage too. Its the combination of holding agro and damage mitigation that makes a tank job. The tank role is not always filled by a tank job though.

And on to the forced subjobs... just look at how few subjobs are considered good outside of soloing or very specific events. Melee, its /war, /sam, /nin, /dnc and maybe /thf now, used to be just /war, /nin and /thf. Mages, its has almost always been /whm or /blm, and with the level cap being 99 now, /rdm and /sch have come into the spotlight more.

[Luvbunny]

But back to jobs that can tank, any melee *can* tank, doesn't make it a good idea though, same applies to mages and healing. Really the main reason Pld and Nin are the go to tanks, is not because of how well they can hold agro alone but how well they can mitigate incoming damage too. Its the combination of holding agro and damage mitigation that makes a tank job. The tank role is not always filled by a tank job though.

So, with that analogy, Blu actually can make a very excellent tank right after Paladin, Rune Fencer and Ninja. Between Cocoon, Saline Coat, Magic Barrier, etc - they have tons of spells that mitigate damage and can wear similar light armor like RUN and NIN. Their evasion seems to be just as bad as PLD so it would be either tanking with shadow or straight up blood tanking. With a WHM or SCH, BLU can tank very well, at least in Abyssea, probably just as good outside. Which then bring up the 4th and 5th slots of tanking.... Samurai and Rdm.

[Hawklaser]

So, with that analogy, Blu actually can make a very excellent tank right after Paladin, Rune Fencer and Ninja. Between Cocoon, Saline Coat, Magic Barrier, etc - they have tons of spells that mitigate damage and can wear similar light armor like RUN and NIN. Their evasion seems to be just as bad as PLD so it would be either tanking with shadow or straight up blood tanking. With a WHM or SCH, BLU can tank very well, at least in Abyssea, probably just as good outside. Which then bring up the 4th and 5th slots of tanking.... Samurai and Rdm.

The problem with Blu tanking I believe lies with the recast timers and durations of most of those spells, and possibly MP costs as well. Though, if I had to tank on an off job, I'd much rather do it on Blu than say Drg. Which I ended up doing once back in the day due to an extremely horrible Pld in a Valley of Sorrows xp party. That was a very painful party.