Enmity imbalance?

[Infidi]

Maybe they'll give avatars a voke.

[saevel]

You guys really don't understand how attack / defense work do you.

I'll give an example.

Level 99 Monster vs Level 99 Player

Player Defense: 500 (Protect V makes his easily possible)
With Berserk, Defense: 375

Monsters rarely have over ~600 attack, they don't eat meat, they don't get bard buffs and their not using leet end game gear. NM's rarely have over 700~750 attack, Ig-Alima is a LV120 ultra NM and is very rare to encounter that.

Regular Monster ratio = 600/500 = 1.2 (2.0 is cap)
Big NM ratio = 700/500 = 1.4, 750/500 = 1.5

*Poof* "ZOMG DEFENSE ADJUSTMENTS!!!!0101" ratio cap is now 4.0 and is has absolutely ZERO effect on the above damage numbers. None of them go over 2.0.

Now lets use Berserk for -25% defense.

Regular Monster ratio 600/375 = 1.6 <no change>
Big Nm ratio 700/375 = 1.86 <no change> 750/375 = 2.0 <no change>

After the update there still is no change to our zerked DD going hog wild with Protect V on. I mean he's just spamming that WS there and building all sorts of enmity and not taking a dime of extra damage.

Now for what WILL cause you to take more damage. Lets introduce Mr Troll, he's ugly and smells bad. While fighting Mr. Troll he use's Enervation for an aoe -50% defense effect. Lets see what that does to us.

Melee without Zerg = 500 * 0.5 = 250 Defense
Melee with Zerg = 375 * 0.5 = 187 Defense or even 125 (off top of my head can't remember if their additive or multiplicative so gonna do both)

Regular Monster = 600/250 = 2.4 which is now a 20% increase over the 2.0 cap.
Regular Monster vs DD zerked = 600/187 = 3.2 for a 60% increase in damage, or 600/125 = 4.8 (capped 4.0) for a full 100% increase in damage.

Big NM = 700/250 = 2.8 for a 40% increase in damage.
Big NM vs DD zerked = 700/187 = 3.74 for an 87% increase and I don't think I need to go any further for people to see how badly our melee is getting the sh!t smacked out of him.

BTW those -defense moves completely ignore your job class, PLD gets hit just as hard as WAR, MNK, THF, DRK and the rest. The only thing that would save a PLD's a$$ isn't his defense, he can completely ignore that, it's his shield blocks that negate a percentage damage.

In fact -DT sets just because the most important thing in the game, they were required to be a good DD but now their mandatory. Defense is nearly useless, always has and always will be, primarily due to the monsters ability to just take it from you. Flat percentage reductions always are in effect and outside of encumbrance the monsters can't take them away.

I warned SE that this would happen if they went with a 4.0 multiplier. And now we see the results, good luck if your not a WAR / DRK / SAM / BLU / PLD.

[Zhronne]

YPlayer Defense: 500 (Protect V makes his easily possible)

Keep in mind that you don't always get Protect V when you're lowmanning or soloing content, especially old lv75 content.
This change wanted to address mainly the end-game part of the game and I'm allright with that, but it ended up playing a difference bigger than intended even in older content, and I'm not really sure this las part is a good thing.

It's pretty ridiculous to get hit by such high damage spikes (especially during TP moves or during certain crits) by lv75 or lower mobs.
Not really sure they really wanted this to happen, I still feel like they just slightly underestimated the consequences of such a huge change, while being focused a bit too much on end-game content.


Anyway, if something is not working as they intended, I'm sure within a couple of months we'll see some tweaks.
Overall I keep my stance of feeling satisfied with this new direction, if anything they showed to be knowing mechanics of this game much better than I gave them credit to, in spite of some silly mistakes/underestimations that they clearly did here and there during this last patch.

[saevel]

Keep in mind that you don't always get Protect V when you're lowmanning or soloing content, especially old lv75 content.
This change wanted to address mainly the end-game part of the game and I'm allright with that, but it ended up playing a difference bigger than intended even in older content, and I'm not really sure this las part is a good thing.

It's pretty ridiculous to get hit by such high damage spikes (especially during TP moves or during certain crits) by lv75 or lower mobs.
Not really sure they really wanted this to happen, I still feel like they just slightly underestimated the consequences of such a huge change, while being focused a bit too much on end-game content.


Anyway, if something is not working as they intended, I'm sure within a couple of months we'll see some tweaks.
Overall I keep my stance of feeling satisfied with this new direction, if anything they showed to be knowing mechanics of this game much better than I gave them credit to, in spite of some silly mistakes/underestimations that they clearly did here and there during this last patch.

This change was directed at DRK/WAR using LR and Berserk together to get enough attack to overcome their pet neo-AV's defense. They didn't take into account the sheer level of -defense moves they equipped all their failed AV attempts with.

Also on "75 content" you should have absolutely zero worried. Level 80-82 mobs rarely have more then 350 attack, 400 tops. And NM's back then didn't have stats much larger then regular mobs, they just wielded bigger swords (base D value). Old content should pose absolutely no problems to anyone.

The damage spikes your seeing are from TP moves with +attack bonus's. As BLU's can tell, many moves have innate attack bonus's and the mobs always get bigger / better versions then we do.

The defense adjustment is overkill pure and simple. They need to reduce the cap to 3.0 or dramatically reduce the effects of -defense ailments. Any formor now has the ability to hit the 4.0 cap on any player due to Aegis Schism's -90% reduction. And they weren't the only ones to get that.

As for Protect V, there are four jobs that have it (WHM, SCH, RDM, PLD), those jobs also happen to be good at keeping you alive. The only time you wouldn't have that is if your out soloing something and honestly I couldn't care less about that.

[Zhronne]

Also on "75 content" you should have absolutely zero worried. Level 80-82 mobs rarely have more then 350 attack, 400 tops. And NM's back then didn't have stats much larger then regular mobs, they just wielded bigger swords (base D value). Old content should pose absolutely no problems to anyone.

Dunno, those 900+ Fluid Toss and 450+ Crits on floor 1 of Apollyon SE kinda made me go WTF.
But I still haven't experienced enough content to point my finger clearly in some direction.

I'm a bit worried about Dynamis on BST, that my pet will take way more damage than it did before, forcing me to get more Pet PDT gear (tbh I hardly had a lot to begin with) or use way more food for Reward.
Still haven't dared to try Dynamis yet, but heard silly things about Statues and DC mobs hitting for ridiculous amounts.

I couldn't care less about that.

I respect that and I would go kinda mad at SE if they dared to put their main focus on solo content, would be a waste of resources.
But at the same time I think the "I couldn't care less" approach is not positive either.
Why not care for both? Not like it would cost them god knows how much time/money to "fix" that.
I guess the next months (and subsequent patches/fixes) will show us where things go.
But personally I do care about this small part of the game and it would make me a bit sad to see it "ruined" for the righteous (not being sarcastic here) greater good of fixing the rest of the game.

Not saying they shouldn't have fixed it at all, it clearly needed a fix. Just saying that *MAYBE* they could have found a way to fix that without ruining that small part of the game that you seem not to care at all about (which is a respectable stance) but at the same time I'm sure other users like me do care for instead.

[Sarick]

It's pretty ridiculous to get hit by such high damage spikes (especially during TP moves or during certain crits) by lv75 or lower mobs.

Anyway, if something is not working as they intended, I'm sure within a couple of months we'll see some tweaks.
Overall I keep my stance of feeling satisfied with this new direction, if anything they showed to be knowing mechanics of this game much better than I gave them credit to, in spite of some silly mistakes/underestimations that they clearly did here and there during this last patch.

I'm seeing a lot of this. Listen, everyone. If these changes stay in place a few people might still stay but the others who've been going on easy street won't be able to enjoy the game anymore. THis in tern will cause them to LEAVE. Them leaving will make the game go downhill more.

Do you all want the game to be shutdown? That's what'll happen if people decide it's not FUN anymore. If people are forced back into hard mode they can't solo, low man or duo with second accounts. It's like this if people aren't happy they quit paying for the subscription. Any smart person knows these thing.

"If you make a babies milk sour it'll stop sucking the milk. In this case SE is selling the milk."

What I'm saying is the amount of subscribers may start to RAPIDLY drop if things aren't done soon. You can sit back and say "I like the new system it's okay" but, ultimately it may just make other people loath the game enough to stop playing or eventuality quit.

I'm not whining here about how bad the system is. I'm pointing out that people are fickle. When the game is thrown into hard core mode not everyone is going to take it well. It's no longer your ideals of a perfect game that matter to them when they pay to play. Players will either adapt or abandon these worlds beause of the developers choices.

Simply put, If it's not enjoyable they have their own wills to choose whats right for their person. This isn't your choice what they like or don't like and there's nothing you can do about it. This however, will impact you far more then you think if the reaction is to quit. So, Is holding stern to our own needs/wants worth it if our companions all leave for greener pastures?

If my gut feeling is right and it usually is. It's changes like these that can cause a rapid exodus of the subscription base. No, This isn't an "I'm QUITTING" ramble. It's a gut feeling I'm having that a lot of players won't take these changes well. You see, I've not been playing much and these changes don't give me any enthusiasm. After seeing all the negative sentiment I've come a harsh reality that the game is not going to be a happy place. It's my gut feeling it'll continue to collapse.

I'm heartbroken because of this news. I assume others feel the same but they haven't said anything. If others feel the same as me they may be already considering alternative entertainment routes. In this case it doesn't look good, it doesn't sound fun and It makes us think if we should invest our time elsewhere.

Something is very wrong with the changes of a large number of subscribers are upset. I'm on the fence right now waiting to see how well the player base handles the changes. If they don't take it well the amount of subscribers will fall rapidly. We shall see if making things "Hard Mode" keeps players coming back or makes them abandon this realm.

[Himrik]

*Poof* "ZOMG DEFENSE ADJUSTMENTS!!!!0101" ratio cap is now 4.0 and is has absolutely ZERO effect on the above damage numbers. None of them go over 2.0.

I'm sorry but I don't see any proof for the adjustment you describe. They only said that "attack-to-defense ratio has undergone adjustment".

Nothing on increasing the cap, or simply using (atk/def)², etc..., only that the level of the monster is much more important now.

[Kokorololi]

I'm sorry but I don't see any proof for the adjustment you describe. They only said that "attack-to-defense ratio has undergone adjustment".

Nothing on increasing the cap, or simply using (atk/def)², etc..., only that the level of the monster is much more important now.

It's explained right here. Note that I'm pretty sure "the player's level is vastly lower than the level of the monster attacking him" is used to describe a scenario in which the monster has a massive amount of Attack more than the player's Defense.

The attack-to-defense ratio has undergone adjustment.
When a player's level is vastly lower than the level of the monster attacking him, there will now be times when he will take much more damage than before.

In the event that:
Attacker's DMG: 100
Attacker's attack power: 1000
Defender's DEF: 250

Amount of damage taken pre-adjustment: 200
Amount of damage taken post-adjustment: 400
* Simplified conditions have been used for the sake of explanation.

Pre-adjustment: It only did 200 damage because the cap was 2.
Post-adjustment: It now does 400 damage because the cap is 4.

[Sarick]

Pre-adjustment: It only did 200 damage because the cap was 2.
Post-adjustment: It now does 400 damage because the cap is 4.

I wonder what would happen if they removed those caps entirely? Imho, it would show just how drastically broken the defense system is. Look at it like this if you play other games when an player vs enemy is severely mismatched you it'll show it with the weaker on getting one shotted for 999999 damage. Then again 999999 is still a CAP.

This is how I feel the defense changes have changed the game. They may still be caped but with enmity being broken and the new damage capacity it's suicidal to fight some enemies solo or as a multi-box player.

On a side note: Right now You can harrass someone soloing really bad if they don't use block aid. Simply give them a big cure 4 then and run off. The mob will chase you down as they scramble to get back hate.

How is this fun? Maybe teasing people is more fun then getting teased by the changes. See, I couldn't help myself. J/K

[Luvbunny]

On a side note: Right now You can harrass someone soloing really bad if they don't use block aid. Simply give them a big cure 4 then and run off. The mob will chase you down as they scramble to get back hate. How is this fun? Maybe teasing people is more fun then getting teased by the changes. See, I couldn't help myself. J/K

Yes this happened to me as RDM trying to help a poor BST getting whacked by those nasty Umbril. Just one cure 4 is enough to send the mob to me. And I was not even in the party, just doing a drive by Protect + Shell and Cure 4 to the poor fellow. Hopefully they will fix it today since it is seriously whacked and render the game unplayable for most pet jobs and mages - I am sure melee would welcome a fix to the defense change as well.