Enmity imbalance?

[saevel]

Obviously, it was hyperbole, but not that far from accurate. I'm well aware of the values, and mechanics.

It's that the (umbrils in that post) take so little damage from melee, that ~2,000 damage wasn't enough to hold enmity over a single cast of auspice, or regen 4.

Obviously after being hit, as they have near perfect accuracy. (in a "standard" tp set)

Enmity needed adjusting, I just think they overshot it, by a little (lot).

2000 damage + the melee hits involved to get that TP should of been plenty, we're talking ~800 CE and another ~2400 VE.

The only part that is "broken" is they didn't adjust Cure V's CE/VE values to be in line with everything else, it's actually the worse heal by far to use for enmity now.

Not every job can "tank" something WHM + XXX like they used to unfortunately. Were you /DNC? Did you not build steps up for animated flourish? It'll provide the big early VE boost through it'll become useless after a min or two of fighting.

[Kincard]

yea, your right, its a lie. Everyone got together and decided to commutatively complain about this because we had nothing better to do. And there is nothing else going on in this game that was worthy enough of or time... -_-

What I'm saying isn't that what you're describing is impossible in the sense that it isn't occuring at all, but that there's a claim that you're playing reasonably and having problems with enmity. We know exactly how enmity works and the only reason cures outside of 5 and 6 are pulling hate is if you are playing completely recklessly. (Seriously, everything got reduced to 30% evenly, logically it would make 0 sense for you to be pulling hate more than you used to from doing cure 1-4) If you are full-timing berserk and counterstance and constantly taking thousand-damage hits that require curing back up, and you lose hate because of that, I think that's called "working properly". I have had 0 problems with hate outside of when I play completely recklessly and do nothing but facetank everything. This is exactly what they were trying to remove, and now people are complaining that taking massive damage and getting cured for it loses hate?

For the record, I do think they should adjust certain static-value enmity gains such as from buffs and status removal, etc, but people are talking about cures 1-4 which were reduced by the exact same value as damage, and complaints about something that is untrue from the basic facts of the game will just lead to them adjusting it so that the hate system is shallow again.

[Himrik]

It's funny because a lot of people complained about Abyssea being "too easy", where any job can facetank anything as long as a back-up WHM spammed Cure VI over and over.

Now, they chanded it, and people think it sucks. There are a lot of enmity generating actions that were just forgotten because they were useless post-75. People just need to remember how you can really tank.

And by the way, what would you do if you had to fight a party ? Won't you go straight for the healer to stop him for saving the others ? And when fighting a summoner and his pet, won't you agree that the best strategy is shooting the summoner first ?

Theses changes are good because not only do they make monsters act a lot "smarter", but also because it revives one archetype that was totally forgotten: Tanks.

[Babekeke]

Enmity is just fine now. Smashing stuff up in abyssea or in new zones, WHMs aren't pulling hate. People just have to rmember that now def plays a bigger role. Let's take THF for example, as this job has been tanking all throughout abyssea, yet it was rare to see them tanking before, due to not having any real way of holding hate:

/NIN: Utsusemi gives a decent amount of hate, and with shadows up you're not taking much damage, so not losing hate, however, you need to utilise your natural JAs to help you to get some hate initially, namely Feint, Conspirator (hit as many ppl as possible with it), bully (if you're tanking wait until you have TP to utilise sneak attack too) and finally, no not accomplice. Any THF using Accomplice to hold hate is an idiot. I'm sorry but you are. Use Collaborator FFS.

/DNC: As many steps as you can, for constant flourish spam. Violent flourish is faster than animated, and means you aren't taking damage while it's stunned, but idk how the emnity values vary between it and animated, other than that with 2 FMs, animated gives more enmity. I prefer Violent. Again then keep using your THF JAs as well. Unless your curing waltz III does more than half what your WS do, you're not tanking efficiently by curing yourself.

/WAR: Provoke FFS! I can't believe how many ppl /WAR that forget that they even have this JA. Other than that, if you're tanking, Berserk should only really be used either towards the end of the fight, or for 1 WS then cancel it. Defender if you get adds or need to super tank for a bit, just rmember that the mob you're hitting isn't getting as much enmity from you from damage now, so your mage might pull hate on that 1 mob. Remember Warcry pulls a lot of hate too if you can hit several people in your pt with it.

Gear/Food: Eva gear for THF is just about worth it, especially if /NIN. -PDT tends to be better though. I hate to mention the food as the price of it is rising exponentially already, but Rabbit Pie FTW.

If you can't manage to do all of the above, then disband your PT, go back to your mog house, swap to your full perle BST and use falcor, like I see half of the people in zone doing right now. They seem fairly happy doing it.

[Jaall]

Everyone complaining about it - consider what it was like in parties before without a tank and 5 dd, the healers would always have issues with hate. If you ask me the main issue you guys are having is that the mobs are hitting too hard for a Tough mob because, due to abyssea, you guys now think you can go out and easily take out every tough in your path duo. Most will be fine but when it comes to a couple, umbrils and rieve mobs etc, of course they're gonna hit like a brick cause that's what they were designed for. The only issue I have is in salvage, I got defence down from a fomor on floor 1 and was being hit a lot harder than before so had to get rid of it asap. Not sure if this was due to the update or gear choices but considering what they changed and the amount they were hitting for I'd say update.

[Zhronne]

Overall I really like the new enmity system but of course it's pretty clear there are a few things which they seriously underestimated. These things, sadly, make the whole thing pretty unenjoyable in the circumstances when they do occur.
They mentioned this was meant to be only the "first step" in the enmity adjustements, so I'm sure more tweaks will be coming very soon.

I'm more annoyed by the Att/Def caps change. I can understand its utility but I still wish they could have gone another way. As it stands now for the things I do in-game, I get hit harder by shitty mobs in old content, making things harder and less enjoyable for me.
Hope they will adjust it at least for mobs under level 90.

[Fermion]

I like the new enmity and atk/def changes.

First off, we've all been spoiled by Abyssea. Popping every offensive buff (with no drawbacks), eating offensive food, and totally ignoring any sort of defense makes for a stupidly easy game. As a SCH, my cure IV does 1k+ and the recast is only 4 seconds, cure III is 550-600ish (can't remember off the top of my head) with a 3 second recast. When enmity was a non issue, it was virtually impossible to die (due to non-consequential cure spammage), unless 1 shotted or doomed or something equally cheesy. These enmity changes will allow for enemy strategies other than simply 1-shotting us. I'm sure we can all agree that that's a good thing.

If you're in this thread complaining, ask yourself, are you really trying to adapt, or just upset because the game isn't so easy anymore? If enmity is an issue for you, maybe you should evaluate yourself instead of blaming the system first. Get better hybrid, pdt/mdt sets. Change your food choices. Look at your subjob strategy. Pay closer attention to enmity + / - on gear. ENFEEBLE the mobs (they actually matter again). Basically, if you're in a duo, riding berserk / hasso, eating RCB and not doing anything defensively on an unfeebled mob, you deserve to get your face smashed in. Which as people have been trying to say, is the reason your healers are having a hard time with enmity.

On a personal note, I've been a Tank, DD and a healer post update. I've been adapting to the changes, and I haven't seen any of these horrible "one cure III and hate" situations being described by some.

[Zhronne]

Fermion I agree people are spoiled, refusing to adapt to changes and just being too overwhiny about a change that in the long run will only do good to the game.

But at the same time it's also pretty clear that a couple of things have been underestimated by SE and are not really working as they thought they would have been.
But that's why they said more changes are coming, I guess.
I don't agree with people who are over-reacting and overall I like this new direction, but still we can't deny there are a couple of things which rightfully generate concerns.

[Fermion]

But at the same time it's also pretty clear that a couple of things have been underestimated by SE and are not really working as they thought they would have been.

I'm not saying the system is perfect as-is, but I like starting at this baseline much more than what we had before.

[Concerned4FFxi]

The problem I have with the attack/defence update is that it is extremly unbalanced in 2 aspects as I see it.

The first aspect being the 100% increase to damage taken/recived if the attack/defense is double the opponent's. I find anytime you adjust a formula by 100%, it's never good. 25-50% would be idle, increase the challenge to the game without murdering everyone and breaking all the paladin's stones when they can't deal any damage at all now.

Lastly, The unbalance the attack update plays against strength based weapon skill users/attack bonus weapon skill users like asuran fists compared to ANY other stat modifying ws. Example, my pld's cdc has been effected greatly, while drg, sam, war, drk are still hitting for the same damage. lets face it, I have no problem with pld being the weakest dd, but now I'm down there with the whm in damage output harder mobs.