New weapons with higher base damage then relics

[Vitus]

They ran out of tricks now they resort to straw-man and red herring fallacies.

[Krashport]

Am I getting wooshed here? Do you read what you type before you click post? Or is this waht passes for thought in your head?

I think you just wooshed me bud, cause you're not making any sense that I can see with this quote...

[Maharo]

Here is the issue that led us to here.
A portion of the community is locked out of events because they don't have REM's. And honestly I have been annoyed many a time with shouts in Jeuno saying Relic or empy DD only. In my opinion that is just plain dumb. I am not going to build an Relic or Empy just so I can actually play the game. I am glad SE gave those people who became so obsessed with relic/ Empy a swift kick in the a@@. Does it suck for those people who spent all the time on their relic / empy yes it does. Should SE make the REM's a bit less underpowered now, sure. Should they go back to being the top weapons of the game, no.
Look main issue is Relics were made to be the end all be all weapons, then they added mythics. At 75 relics were rare and status symbols of achievement. Now at 99 they are relatively common not special weapons you now must have. I hate to break it to you all but the work and effort has already been belittled by the player base. Empy stand with Relics in term of status and if you play with a group that is working towards it you can get one fairly easy.
Also remember this game was never designed to pass 75 cap. 76-99 has caused a whole bunch of issues in the game mechanics. SE was nice and let you upgrade relics. Then the community turned around and punished people who either didn't want to or did not have the group to farm dynamis or honestly like in my case did not want to compete with the 40 bst in zone. Can I make a relic to join those groups sure spend the 6-12 months farming dynamis while dealing with bsts. Do I want to spend my free time being miserable and pay a company for it ....no. Should I be forced to so I can do events to get gear I want ... hell no. But that is what happened. I have been kicked from VW parties because I did not have super gear or 9/10 times a relic. VW the place where proccing and abyssite determine 90% of a fight. You think that is right and ok? I don't. Now we have crafted options that can at the moment overshadow relic empy and mythic in damage. So casual players can actually play this game and go to bigger events. I am sorry the time you spent of your choice feels wasted. But I feel worse for those people who have to log off in frustration since no group will take them due to not having a overvalued still only slightly better then easier gotten, weapon.
I know the REM holders will complain till SE makes them the top dogs again so the feel justified but hey sometimes things don't work out in the end no matter how much effort you put into it. Even if SE makes them on par with the new weapons they will still complain because they are not the "Best". I hope if SE makes R E M back into super weapons they make it so only a handful can actually do it. So we don't find ourselves in the same position as "R E M or go home".
Didn't a lot of people complain about the grind of events? Now we have events that is less grind and for some reason people are complaining again.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Here is the issue that led us to here....[etc]

I am sorry to hear that you were treated so roughly in such events, but that may be server specific as i myself have never been kicked from voidwatch for lacking a weapon in the RME ranks. In fact my only emps are 80 gandiva, 85 almace, and 85 kannagi, not one of which ive used in a voidwatch, an even that i did atleast 800+ pops on akvan and still failed to get a heka body. However there were more reasonable options presented, the WOE weapons, which i have 3 of, 2 99, and one 90, and ill be the first to say, and yes i may get flack for it, i created my maschu/hiradenotachi +2s and now their final forms in around 2 weeks work each, And there are times i outclass or give the 95/90 R/E users a run for their money because of the delay allowing higher volume of ws use. I also lack shoha so that says something.

I fully support there being more reasonable alternitives to the RME weapons, but i also have a few elemental path weapons, some WSDMG+10% and an OAT greatsword, and tpbonus+100 polearm. Now, i dont fear as muuch for my incomplete gandiva/almace/kannagi or my shamash or even gkt. What i do fear for is all those other very reasonable weapons are also wasted, me doing work to get to a point where i could keep up or compare with these RME users without hindering groups i join. I took great pride in getting my jobs to the place they were.

But now with what everyone thinks is weapons falling into their lap, all my hard work, and these magian trials that took a lot of time and effort, have become a memory, and not one i can relive because nobody will let me use my earned gear, because it isnt the newest, shiniest stuff. Atop that, the new content will ensure nobody wants to help me do the old content, because it is now less rewarding.

To top that off, with this steep incline, the only question is, where will the line be drawn? If we hush up, and next week theres weapons climbing to 350dmg, and the following week the weapons soaring to 500dmg, and beyond. And what if delve becomes RME only? Suddenly we are back at square one, and the constant gear tredmill we have been trotting on at speed 2 was just cranked up to 14, and before we can realize, too many players have fallen upon their chin, and slammed into the back wall.

I barely stated Salvage II, and then Reives came out, But thats okay, because the weapons from wildkeeper werent so outrageous as to render relics/mythics/empyreans obsolite totally, so i jumped into starting reives, and after getting my 3rd piece of gear, boom, update, all prior content diminished.

So while i do feel for you, i cant help but think either your, or my experiences are atypical of the common situation. But there already were weapons that could keep up with the old RME weaponry, and with coins becoming tradeable and bazaarable (i personally helped/gave 4 people the coins needed to make their own weapons) i dont see a need to flatten the playingfield and expect people to swallow that without a fight.

Id rather not see the damage on weapons keep skyrocketing out of control.

Edit: and not that it matters, but if anyone asks, i am fully willing to list the weapons i used for each of the 18 jobs i had leveled.

[OmnysValefor]

Oh come on.

People need to quit pretending there weren't other options besides REM. Again I know a few people with relics that went ahead and made magian OA2-4 weapons. Also, there were plenty of jobs noone cared what your weapon was. Every mage.

My blm is crap. Its skills are nearly capped (lol) and that's about all I can say for it. Never once did a group turn away my blm in his chatoyant staff.

REM only, for a lot of people, is just a way of saying they're not taking your pink dancer no matter how pretty you think she is when she does Haste Samba's dance. You could build quite the weapon with several (not several dozen, not several hundred, just several) hours time and a few million gil. You could also come whm,blm,sch,smn,brd,cor,blu and while yes, and geegollyhorn was desired, people will take a decent bard over nothing at all.

I know for a fact you can take blu because that's how I got into voidwatch. Turns out, if you say Blue Mage, 99% of the time, they won't turn you down. They didn't care that, at the time, I was dual-wielding isador and mageblade (spell-int-10% sword), and didn't care that his gear was comprised of ninja scraps that said blu on them.

Yes, some people are idiots, like the guy who turned down a mythic 99 drg because "we already have a drg"-it's a screenshot on ffxiah, but once you get past those, you meet pug leaders that actually aren't bad people, they just also don't want the blame for leading a bad run.

If there is any type of great cost associated with being the best at a job in this game, the people who wouldn't pursue relics and mythics and empies still aren't going to be the best. Dethroning REM isn't going to change that.

[Lotto]

Because we all are Members of the same Online game, paying a monthly subscription. Why should those Members that play longer and invest more time out of their lives... get the better rewards is what we should be asking, last I checked we are all using Green Money. No matter which way we look at things, most if not all is a time-sink.

FINAL FANTASY XI is not the same game that it used to be anymore. Like it or not, but that is our answer! Hehe~

You don't understand why someone who puts more effort than you in something should get better rewards? This is almost as stupid as SE releasing all these new weapons.
Why someone who spent hours and money to lvl a craft to 100+ should get more money than someone with no craft at all? Answer is clear : because he did work harder to get it.

[ThaiChi]

I don't know if this has even been discussed yet, because i'm not going to sift through the rest oft his ever growing thread, but the implementation of these new weapons has invalidated any magian weapon trial. Obviously we're thinking about the empyrean aspect but when trial of the magians was introduced it basically made it so you would never have to buy a weapon off the AH again to be up to par, which was nice from someone who struggled to buy a Hagun back at 75 cap. But these new weapons make it so ToM serves no purpose other than to upgrade RME to 99/Afterglow, Relic Armor and Job emotes.

I honestly liked trial of the magians a lot. I hope that whatever they have planned encompasses every weapon that goes through a magian trial at the very least.

[Afania]

Here is the issue that led us to here.
A portion of the community is locked out of events because they don't have REM's. And honestly I have been annoyed many a time with shouts in Jeuno saying Relic or empy DD only. In my opinion that is just plain dumb. I am not going to build an Relic or Empy just so I can actually play the game. I am glad SE gave those people who became so obsessed with relic/ Empy a swift kick in the a@@.

Maybe if you spend 1hr reading forums and do some research, you'd find out there are several other options available if you don't have R/E/M.

1. Play jobs that doesn't need R/E/M, or have decent alternatives. Only 3 DD jobs need a R/E/M to perform well, so you have other jobs to choose from.

2. If you think you have good performance, but still not accepted to the pt, make your own pt. I'm not sure why everyone and their mother complained about no invite without R/E/M, and still refuse to make their own.

VW the place where proccing and abyssite determine 90% of a fight. You think that is right and ok? I don't. Now we have crafted options that can at the moment overshadow relic empy and mythic in damage. So casual players can actually play this game and go to bigger events.

3. Actually, R/E/M being required in VW, it's not player's fault. Because VW isn't proccing/abyssite determine 90% of fight, it's dmg output determine 70% of fight. SE made the gap between R/E/M and regular job too big to begin with, and VW has high wipe rate T6+ if output is too low. Fights like T6+ or prov, you will see fail rate increase if fight dragged to over 3 min, and certain weaker PUG it last for 5+ min or even 10.

Thus it's completely reasonable for the pt to aim for higher output, to be able to win in 1~3 min. You can have nearly 100% win rate if the mob dies in 2 min, but if it goes higher it's easier to wipe.

If Ukon lv 85 still superior than other AH GA options at lv99, then safe to say the gap between R/E/M and AH weapon is too big, and once you let lv 85 empy obtainable by majority of dedicated players, the game balance went out of control.

4. If you think new AH weapons would "save" casual weapons, gl with that. By the end of next month it'd be delve weapon only instead of R/E/M only. And if you think you can just go to AH and buy a weapon and be happy, then you're not a casual player probably.......certain ingot required to craft new weapons already went over 10M each, and that's not counting NM drop needed. GL for casuals to be able to afford those new craftable weapons now that 1 reliable gil making method is gone.

[Richwood]

This is a quote from fillerbunny9 on ffxiah.com but not sure I could say it better.
with the relative ease that (Delve)drops occur, what is going to KEEP people playing? this isn't WoW where you have a massive, casual playerbase to live off of month to month while the harder core players complete the expansion like it's a race. if people are getting their "insert crazy aztec named weapon here" what's going to maintain their sub from month to month? we're done with levelling, even soloing RUN I took it to 74 and a half before ducking into Abyssea within a week. I see the new weapons already on their 2nd Augment in East/West Adoulin frequently enough that I wonder if once the people racing through this content are finished, if they don't just let their subs. lapse because oh hey, 99% of the content in the game has been rendered obsolete.

what are all the pet job players to do now that the weaponry FAR exceeds any balance with pets? Wyverns are now even more laughable than before, Avatars, Automatons, and BST Jugs are all a joke now. (well, Automatons are still useful as a WHM, but who's going to take PUP to the new content?) Black Mages spells are not hitting any harder from what I have seen, Scholars are just casting Cure spells with their White Mage brethren, and Red Mage.... what the ***'s a Red Mage? meanwhile SE alienates their base of melee by saying "any weapon you put a lot of work into is now a steaming turd compared to this stuff you can get pretty damn fast, now chase them down!" and they're supposed to smile while they're fed that ***sandwich.

it's no wonder Matsui feels like he is getting an ulcer, because the updates have shown just how little of a plan they actually have beyond inflating numbers while letting the rest of the game go to pot. the entire XI Dev Team has been caught with their pants down, and the best they can do is "get back to us" about solutions to breaking the game.

[Karbuncle]

Because we all are Members of the same Online game, paying a monthly subscription. Why should those Members that play longer and invest more time out of their lives... get the better rewards is what we should be asking, last I checked we are all using Green Money. No matter which way we look at things, most if not all is a time-sink.

FINAL FANTASY XI is not the same game that it used to be anymore. Like it or not, but that is our answer! Hehe~

I do want to thank you for being the only person for this Hyperdrivegeargrind XI update to take the time to answer my question. But as said, I would like to respond. (Edited in: Please understand, after about the first paragraph I am no longer addressing you directly, once you get to the point where my posts becomes gradually less "nice", you'll know I'm not addressing you anymore, and generally just the entire populace fapping to our 'tears')

The guy who used the company metaphor is spot on. By which reasoning do you think doing less effort means should be getting the same rewards as someone putting in double/triple/quadruple your work? If i worked for 20 hours a week, should i be outraged that i don't get paid the same amount as people who play 40 hours a week? I'm sorry but this is exactly what you're doing, rather it be a game or a job, Effort = Reward, in MMOs, and even in every offline game ever. Things aren't just handed to you because you feel entitled to them.

And one point in particular, you make it seem as If these people with RMEC had some unfair advantage in obtaining them. They don't. YOU, ALL OF YOU who sit there and Float on about how easy to obtain RMEC are, don't even own one, but the kicker is, you could get a Relic with less than 2hours a day, 2 hours even if you want to take full advantage of the zone time... You could make an Empyrean, over a longer period of time, with less than 2hours a day, Mythic is another story but it always has been, and while it would take a long time, you could also do it with less than 2 hours of effort a day.

All of these weapons you already have the EQUAL AND OPPORTUNE RIGHTS TO OBTAIN, its just a matter of how or how not lazy you are, Because every single event to obtain a RMEC can be done, casually, in 1 hour. That and some of you need to realize the difficulty and power of the NM's and delve itself means that the general type of people cheering these new weapons are likely never to see one within the first 2-3 months because no ones going to want a non RME DD or because no ones going to want to let you essentially Leech. Plus, the AH weapons you cheer about are likely going to cost you half/fourth the price of a relic for the first few months they're in the game.

So in all honesty, There's still a huge amount of effort you'll need to put into obtaining these. Unless you get lucky and someone lets you leech their run, you're just going to be sitting in town, like you did for 11 years when you could have been out doing dynamis for a relic, so the difference is moot, and to be frank, all of you are really just happy us evil elitists can't have our special satan weapons to hold over you sweet innocent saints.

Honestly, and I'm covering my bases with this, if you didn't get a RMEC because it wasn't "fun", then why do you care that other people did so much that it makes you get a Gameboner because these weapons are being outdated? You do and always have had the same chances and oppurtunities as current RMEC holders are, the only difference was motivation and drive. When i got my mandau, i was playing very casually, i worked for a Webhosting company full time, and I solo'd most of the dynamis runs during Stage III/IV, it took me months and months and months, But all i needed to do was dedicated 2hours a day, hell I didn't even go every day. I'm living proof incarnate that the argument or RL, Time constraints, "Special blah blah" is just a logical falacy and a scapegoat used to give your arguments more "umph" because when you ask yourself, "Why am i happy?" all you can think of is you have an unnatural hatred of RMEC owners because they work harder than you, and had better gear to show for it, and you can't stand that.

(Though, I will hit one for your side too, some of the RMEC i see are actually raging for the opposite reason, they feel special and now they're angry they can't be "Better" Than everyone, but this is like 5% of the RMEC population, almost every RME I've met got their 95-99 Version only because they loved the job and wanted to be better at it, not show it off and laugh at you folk).