What if Maneuvers lasted longer than 1 minute?

[Nezha]

Also I think its fair to include BST pet damage, its intrinsic to the job... Thats why pet jobs have the potential to out DD many melee jobs...

[Zagen]

From what I can tell from the spreadsheets, which im sure are far from perfect, PUP has a combined DPS of ~67 DPS units above BST... Maybe I'm missing something....

Also, we are arguing two different points, I am saying DPS only taking into account, what the job has intrinsically and gets from its subjob, food is okay, but brds, cors, VW TPwings, etc. I think is biased... PUP gets Haste naturally where BST and most other melee jobs don't which is already a boost in DPS by ~15%...

And man you reply fast haha

If you're including haste from the puppet you should include dia 2. I don't disagree at that point PUP is far ahead of BST and even some of those DDs I inferred earlier.

The problem with the spreadsheets is they don't include pet damage.

I think you'll agree comparing pets Flacorr's damage surpasses that of a WHM frame possibly even the RDM frame too for content where the pet can deal damage regularly. So the question becomes is haste/dia2 enough to make up for Falcorr's damage. A familiared Falcorr has haste 10% on it, Triple Attack I (I assume 1 since the TH nerf), Crit Atk Bonus I (again assuming it was nerfed as well).

As to fast replies I did say I'm enjoying the discussion

Also how in the heck does BST get AM3 without using Primal Rend with 300 TP? If you get 300 TP for aftermaths you've gotta give up 3 WSs

You missed the part where I said VW (Voidwatch) which assumes a TP Wing is regained within 3 minutes (reasonable assumption imo) so BST only loses 1 Ruinator instead of 3.

[Nezha]

Hmm i guess this is where difference in skill comes in because I use all pets interchangably, I can switch between any two in less than five seconds, could be faster but there is a delay when adding and removing attachments which is annoying, and is why i posted something about it... But anyways, I usually switch between WHM and RNG frames, only buff and cure with WHM when I need it, so you'd be comparing falcorr damage against ranger frame and hasted master although I'm sure you'd need to take per command delays into account...

More on that: my theory is if puppetmaster could use all its pets at once it'd be unstoppable, so the next closest thing is being able to switch between them on command...

[Nezha]

And still in VW PUP would lose only 1 SP since you instantly get 300 TP... So no different than BST there and AM3 benefits Stringing Pummel more because number of hits it has gives a higher chances of procing DA/TA overall (maxing at 8 hits ofc), also our strongest weapon skill and mythic weapon skill are the same, so ruinator doesn't get the 30% damage boost SP does.

[Zagen]

Hmm i guess this is where difference in skill comes in because I use all pets interchangably, I can switch between any two in less than five seconds, could be faster but there is a delay when adding and removing attachments which is annoying, and is why i posted something about it... But anyways, I usually switch between WHM and RNG frames, only buff and cure with WHM when I need it, so you'd be comparing falcorr damage against ranger frame and hasted master although I'm sure you'd need to take per command delays into account...

More on that: my theory is if puppetmaster could use all its pets at once it'd be unstoppable, so the next closest thing is being able to switch between them on command...

5 seconds seems a bit fast for swapping attachments even then you're not factoring in the additional 2 second JA delays from activate/deactivate/Repair(if Dues was used).

And still in VW PUP would lose only 1 SP since you instantly get 300 TP... So no different than BST there and AM3 benefits Stringing Pummel more because number of hits it has gives a higher chances of procing DA/TA overall (maxing at 8 hits ofc), also our strongest weapon skill and mythic weapon skill are the same, so ruinator doesn't get the 30% damage boost SP does.

Actually PUP loses nothing in the context of VW since Stringing Pummel is the AM trigger WS.

Ruinator is 4 +1 hit (assumes /DNC) allowing for 2-3 chances to proc. 100% STR mod. Attack bonus in the range of 35%. Much better WS gear.

Even with the 30% damage bonus Stringing Pummel doesn't touch Ruinator's damage. It's the melee phase that helps PUP overcome the WS damage loss.

When factoring 99 Mythic AM3 Up from TP Wing PUP wins because of the damage lost by using Primal Rend until getting into the 2 to 3 Maneuver cycles at which point PUP is slightly ahead to on par.

I think that's fair considering the work involved in making a Mythic. Even if the Maneuver duration was extended I'd still think it's fair as we're talking Mythic realm only before that PUP would be behind BST.

[Nezha]

It may seem fast, but it is true... I urge you to come to my server if you want see pet switch in action, you name any pet and ill switch to it with all necessary attachments in under 5. I've played no other job for the past 7 years, so I know it inside out...

I agree its much easier to gear 100% STR mod, but Stringing Pummel damage +30% not touching Ruinator damage seems like stretch to say the least... But of course idk the theoretical numbers, but in practice my SPs are in 3-4k range outside with only food and depending on AM3 (which makes SP 6+ 1~2 hits; with 95% chance of DA procing on at least one of the hits)

But fair enough, I still think a experienced/well geared PUP w/o Mythic will out-DD a BST in practice, but thats based on what I've seen over past 7 years and not spreadsheets, so gotta take it with grain of salt I guess.

In the end, they are both great jobs, but what shys me away from playing BST is lack of control when multiple mobs are fighting the pet... Which I think needs to be addressed...

[Zagen]

It man seem fast, but it is true... I urge you to come to my server if you want see pet switch in action, you name any pet and ill switch to it with all necessary attachments in under 5. I've played no other job for the past 7 years, so I know it inside out...

Sorry if it came off that I didn't believe you, it doesn't sound impossible to me. It probably seems fast because I don't play PUP like that at the moment. I'll be giving it a shot though as it sounds like a fun way to play PUP.

[Nezha]

Puppetmaster Tip#1: The Law of Elemental Capacities:

The rule of thumb for interchanging between pets is knowing that:

1) BLM RDM WHM only differ by dark/light elemental capacities

2) PLD RNG only differ by wind and earth (also water (by 2) fire (by 1) and thunder (by 1) slightly, but this shouldn't be much of an issues as far as what is NEEDED for the pet to perform its role properly)

3) If you want to switch between a melee and mage automaton, say WHM and RNG:

-Gear RNG pet with attachments you'd use for WHM (filling from the bottom)

-Then switch to WHM and add attachments you'd use for RNG

-Leave 1~3 upper left hand attachment slots for attachments that (would upset the balance that would allow head/frame to be switched without changing any attachments) need to be added/removed for quick pet switch.

Hopefully if the delay between adding and removing attachments is removed, switching between any two pets will be even faster, so please like and reply to that post to bring it to the DEVs attention! Thanks! Cheers to all my fellow puppetmasters!

[Dohati]

why are over half of this threads responses about whether pup sucks or not? not relevant.

[Zagen]

why are over half of this threads responses about whether pup sucks or not? not relevant.

Those posts are about PUP's current damage potential as well as how it's used. The OP talks about extending the duration of maneuvers which would further increases PUP's damage potential as well as potentially changes how it's used, so how are they not relevant?

The irony in your post made me smile at least