What if Maneuvers lasted longer than 1 minute?

[Zagen]

What if Maneuver's duration was extended to 5 minutes, 30 minutes, or even 1-2 hours.

The use of a Maneuver every 30 seconds (2 maneuver cycle) comes at the cost of around 6% damage potential (differs based on melee/ws gear).

The use of a Maneuver every 20 seconds (3 maneuver cycle) comes at the cost of around 9% damage potential (differs based on melee/ws gear).

Does increasing the damage potential 6~9% seem over powered?

Something to note this still puts PUP behind a BST in terms of DPS by around 20 damage with Mythic being on par/slightly edging ahead of BST.

[Nezha]

I do agree that this would be nice and since only the duration is increased you can still spam maneuvers every 10 seconds if you chose to, although overall this would decrease the tendency to overload overall which deemphasizes the need for cooldown and overload reduction gear which is likely the reason this hasn't been changed yet.

I unsure about the math about the mythic only putting PUP slightly ahead of BST given that the martial arts effect alone is the equivalent of ~15% haste, Kenkonken has a longer lasting aftermath duration than most mythics (incl. BST), Stringing Pummel also being one of the best WS because it is crit. based and has more chances for AM3 to proc based on hits, and the fact a hand-to-hand weapon stand above single wielded weapons as of current (and 2 handed weapons being above both). Personally I find I out-DD most jobs with Kenkonken (not incl. my automaton) save for Relic-Resolution WAR/SAMs or really well geared SAM since those jobs are made to deal damage.

I'm also unsure how you calculated the percentages for damage reduction due the the pet command delay of using maneuvers. I know it does inhibit us a bit, but I'm unsure on how significant it is. But please enlighten me because I'm not very good with gaming mechanics...

[Zagen]

I do agree it does reduce the overload chances based on how you happen to play and/or the event. When I was writing this out initially I thought about that and I realized that looking back on all things I've done on PUP I find that I don't overload unless I'm trying to maintain a constant double element and even then it's rare enough Cool Down prevents it. I guess this becomes more of a benefit if overload gear isn't used or the goal is locking 3 maneuvers when making the comparison at which point I would agree it would be a significant gain.

Personally I find I out-DD most jobs with Kenkonken save for Relic-Resolution WAR/SAMs, unless my pets damage is included.

Find better DDs there's no way a PUP even with mythic is beating traditional DDs who know what they're doing.

As to how I got my numbers, I used Motenten's PUP Spreadsheet. Can be found here (as well as other jobs)

I compared identical setups with the only difference being the timing of maneuver usage to get the damage increase percentages. I used the BST sheet with DA/STR axes and even Mythic/STR(no AM) to get my estimations.

Considering PUP has 0 ways to maintain AM3 I didn't bother factoring that into the math. That said if you factor in AM3 on PUP you'd have to compare BST with AM3 which benefits BST more due to ruinator gaining more from AM3.

The one thing PUP has going for it if Mythic AMs were to be considered, is the fact that it isn't giving up as much damage to trigger AM 3 as BST would. Also all Mythic AM3 have the same duration of 3 minutes (KKK AM 1/2 do get longer duration but that doesn't apply to 3).

[xiozen]

Find better DDs there's no way a PUP even with mythic is beating traditional DDs who know what they're doing.

The above statement alone discredits you in my eyes... I have partied with Nezha on quite a few occasions and witnessed his damage output with his lvl99 KKKs... and I'm jealous :P And even alliance/party members during said events and parties have constantly praised his dmg output, because consistently it has dealt more damage to the NMs we were fighting than traditional DDs... so (1) party with a very well geared Puppetmaster who uses a lvl99 KKK, then come back to the table with your opinion. Until then... try not to comment on something you haven't witnessed... your making half-***'d comments about something you assume to be correct and have no clue what your talking about.

Considering PUP has 0 ways to maintain AM3 I didn't bother factoring that into the math. That said if you factor in AM3 on PUP you'd have to compare BST with AM3 which benefits BST more due to ruinator gaining more from AM3.

huh?...same as above... I refuse to waste anymore of my precious life, reading your comments 'nuff said.

[Zagen]

The above statement alone discredits you in my eyes... I have partied with Nezha on quite a few occasions and witnessed his damage output with his lvl99 KKKs... and I'm jealous :P And even alliance/party members during said events and parties have constantly praised his dmg output, because consistently it has dealt more damage to the NMs we were fighting than traditional DDs... so (1) party with a very well geared Puppetmaster who uses a lvl99 KKK, then come back to the table with your opinion. Until then... try not to comment on something you haven't witnessed... your making half-***'d comments about something you assume to be correct and have no clue what your talking about.


huh?...same as above... I refuse to waste anymore of my precious life, reading your comments 'nuff said.

I'm sorry math says otherwise.

Argue all you want that a PUP is awesome the damage potential just isn't there (except abyssea but then again at this point is that really an event to brag about?) when comparing it to equally geared accepted DDs.

Feel free to check out the spreadsheets I linked yourself if you don't believe me. However you'll find I'm right. about not being able to beat equally geared "accepted DD" jobs.

[Phafi]

i'd even settle for 3 minutes, but i like where OP is going with this.

[Nezha]

Before I digress to the damage capability of a experienced and well geared PUP, I want to restate I agree with extending the durations although I don't see it happen adsuming the theoretical math is correct, because 6-9% is a statically significant damage reductions, so thumbs up from me to OP.

As for your theoretical math which doesn't take EVERY factor into account, i still disagree, because in the end skill >>> gear in my opinion, which is a variable held constant in you're math... So if there is a BST out there that can out DD me in practice, I'd have yet to see it... I also rectified what I said earlier, meant to say that WAR/SAM, well geared/skilled SAMs still can out DD me because that have job traits and abilities intrinsic to the job to do so, where PUP does not but my damage is on par with pet included (assuming no outside buffs from other chars, just what the job/sub job combination can provide)...

Also i didn't quite understand what you meant by 'PUP has no way of maintaining AM3' because I have little problem with that, and something about Ruinator benefiting more from AM3...

(PS I know emotion can be lost in text, but I'm not intending for this to be a heated argument, I'm curious and interested in understanding your logic and theoretical numbers and am enjoying the conversation )

[Zagen]

for your theoretical math which doesn't take EVERY factor into account, i still disagree, because in the end skill >>> gear in my opinion, which is a variable held constant in you're math... So if there is a BST out there that can out DD me in practice, I'd have yet to see it... I also rectified what I said earlier, meant to say that WAR/SAM, well geared/skilled SAMs still can out DD me because that have job traits and abilities intrinsic to the job to do so, where PUP does not but my damage is on par with pet included (assuming no outside buffs from other chars, just what the job/sub job combination can provide)...

The assumption made when looking at math (including spreadsheets) is that everything is equal, including the skill of the person.

Edit:

Also i didn't quite understand what you meant by 'PUP has no way of maintaining AM3' because I have little problem with that, and something about Ruinator benefiting more from AM3...

You have to melee to 300 TP in order to gain AM3 (VW has wings but again that benefits BST more as they aren't wasting 3 Ruinators to start AM3).

(PS I know emotion can be lost in text, but I'm not intending for this to be a heated argument, I'm curious and interested in understanding your logic and theoretical numbers and am enjoying the conversation )

To be clear as am I

Edit 2:
I think I should point out when I have BST beating PUP for DPS that assumes no haste/dia2 from the puppet. The reason for excluding that is if I include buffs from the puppet it's only fair I'd include the damage from a BST's pet.

[Nezha]

From what I can tell from the spreadsheets, which im sure are far from perfect, PUP has a combined DPS of ~67 DPS units above BST... Maybe I'm missing something....

Also, we are arguing two different points, I am saying DPS only taking into account, what the job has intrinsically and gets from its subjob, food is okay, but brds, cors, VW TPwings, etc. I think is biased... PUP gets Haste naturally where BST and most other melee jobs don't which is already a boost in DPS by ~15%...

And man you reply fast haha

[Nezha]

Also how in the heck does BST get AM3 without using Primal Rend with 300 TP? If you get 300 TP for aftermaths you've gotta give up 3 WSs