BST Native Dual-Wield~

[Zagen]

Getting native DW would be incredibly overpowered for the job, even at DW 1 I'd consider it going into the overpowered realm. The only time I could see it being of benefit without making BST over powered is in VW where /WAR would be appealing because BST wouldn't get DD buffs.

I would gladly take Fencer over Dual Wield any day!

The only time Fencer would ever pull ahead for BST (even at WAR's current Tier V) is when you're not /NIN or /DNC and are able to melee. In the current FFXI world I can think of 2 situations where that would apply; "for fun" and if you're soloing Armed Gears as BST/SCH. You just give up too much to make Fencer work over Dual Wield.

[Ramaza]

Getting native DW would be incredibly overpowered for the job, even at DW 1 I'd consider it going into the overpowered realm. The only time I could see it being of benefit without making BST over powered is in VW where /WAR would be appealing because BST wouldn't get DD buffs.


The only time Fencer would ever pull ahead for BST (even at WAR's current Tier V) is when you're not /NIN or /DNC and are able to melee. In the current FFXI world I can think of 2 situations where that would apply; "for fun" and if you're soloing Armed Gears as BST/SCH. You just give up too much to make Fencer work over Dual Wield.

As someone who regularly parses I beg to differ. The Ruinator WS is quite literally the only way we can keep up these days. DW1 certainly isn't going to overpower anyone, neither will DW2 or 3 on its own; the delay of one-handed axes will make sure of that. The real strength of being able to have dual wield on our own will come from being able to sub WAR and still Dual wield. In doing this we'll at least have a leg up in trying to compete in damage with other jobs, since outside of Killer Instinct/Traits/Food BST has no native way to boost their own damage.

Not to mention the benefits of being able to dual wield PDT axes and /Mage if you have to. The benefits outweigh any possible negatives.

[Zagen]

As someone who regularly parses I beg to differ. The Ruinator WS is quite literally the only way we can keep up these days. DW1 certainly isn't going to overpower anyone, neither will DW2 or 3 on its own; the delay of one-handed axes will make sure of that. The real strength of being able to have dual wield on our own will come from being able to sub WAR and still Dual wield. In doing this we'll at least have a leg up in trying to compete in damage with other jobs, since outside of Killer Instinct/Traits/Food BST has no native way to boost their own damage.

Not to mention the benefits of being able to dual wield PDT axes and /Mage if you have to. The benefits outweigh any possible negatives.

Math > Parse. If your parses have you keeping up with DDs (I'm assuming that's what you're talking about) then 1 of 4 things is happening:
1) Those DD suck
2) Different buffs
3) Lag
4) Human error

Ruinator is amazing but it isn't going to bridge the gap with DDs.

DW 1 allows BST to go BST/nonNINorDNC while maximizing it's pet's stats via double axes. Essentially beneficial for the sit back and watch solos. Like I implied weak enough but still boarders into the overpowered realm as it removes restriction of weapon limitation from dropping /NIN or /DNC.

DW2-3 gives us the same as /NIN and /DNC for TP gain. However when you throw in an extra 10% Double Attack the TP gain surpasses /NIN and /DNC (should be obvious I'm just pointing it out not assuming you don't get that). Combine that with 25% Attack and it grants us even faster ability to destroy a monster without penalty.

Despite the delay on Axes DW2+ > Single Wield for TP and overall damage.

I get the idea you want to try and keep up with the DD classes but BST is not a DD. Trying to break into that realm would make BST overpowered and lead to nerfs in other areas that BST currently excels.

[Ramaza]

Math > Parse. If your parses have you keeping up with DDs (I'm assuming that's what you're talking about) then 1 of 4 things is happening:
1) Those DD suck
2) Different buffs
3) Lag
4) Human error

Ruinator is amazing but it isn't going to bridge the gap with DDs.

DW 1 allows BST to go BST/nonNINorDNC while maximizing it's pet's stats via double axes. Essentially beneficial for the sit back and watch solos. Like I implied weak enough but still boarders into the overpowered realm as it removes restriction of weapon limitation from dropping /NIN or /DNC.

DW2-3 gives us the same as /NIN and /DNC for TP gain. However when you throw in an extra 10% Double Attack the TP gain surpasses /NIN and /DNC (should be obvious I'm just pointing it out not assuming you don't get that). Combine that with 25% Attack and it grants us even faster ability to destroy a monster without penalty.

Despite the delay on Axes DW2+ > Single Wield for TP and overall damage.

I get the idea you want to try and keep up with the DD classes but BST is not a DD. Trying to break into that realm would make BST overpowered and lead to nerfs in other areas that BST currently excels.

You assumed wrong. I'm making this argument for the fact that we can't keep with a lot of DDs in the game. I don't know why you assumed the other, and yes WE ARE A DD CLASS just like any other pet job. We just currently aren't a very attractive DD class for endgame content. Its the community at large that continues to treat the class as the throw away position the class is currently in, and for good reason, because its a challenge to even keep up with other DD let alone be competitive. And no it would not make us overpowered, giving us Dual wield 2-3 isn't going to make us do better than a well geared Ukon/Resolution WAR or DRK or a weall geared SAM or a well geared DRG. One handed DD already have it rough versus 2 handers and the Motenten spreadsheets (dat math) can prove that.

Double attack+10% won't bridge a gap like that to borderline brokeness, neither will 25% attack bonus from Berserk, but what it can do is make us more competitive and attractive in a party situation. Even when you factor in Snarl its still not as broken as your over exaggerating it to be, do to the fact that most of the things worth doing anymore have powerful AoE's, so the pet is bound to die sooner or later even with max potency reward and recast down. Just like DRG with Jumps/Super Jump down we have just as much chance to die even with our hate erase abilities.

Nothing that BST currently excels at is worth being mitigated to nothing more than low man content whore ala Dynamis, Salvage etc. At least let us be competitive like a PUP/WAR can be. Unless you think PUP/WAR is currently broken.

[Zagen]

You assumed wrong. I'm making this argument for the fact that we can't keep with a lot of DDs in the game.

Well I'm sorry you implied that Ruinator allowed BST to keep up with DDs here:

As someone who regularly parses I beg to differ. The Ruinator WS is quite literally the only way we can keep up these days.

and yes WE ARE A DD CLASS just like any other pet job.

If you broke the classes down to something rudimentary like Healer and DD then sure BST would go under DD.

Its the community at large that continues to treat the class as the throw away position the class is currently in, and for good reason, because its a challenge to even keep up with other DD let alone be competitive. And no it would not make us overpowered, giving us Dual wield 2-3 isn't going to make us do better than a well geared Ukon/Resolution WAR or DRK or a weall geared SAM or a well geared DRG. One handed DD already have it rough versus 2 handers and the Motenten spreadsheets (dat math) can prove that.

My community (the people I regularly play with) loves my BST, PUP, and SMN. You know in those situations where they are a bigger benefit over my other jobs.

Double attack+10% won't bridge a gap like that to borderline brokeness, neither will 25% attack bonus from Berserk, but what it can do is make us more competitive and attractive in a party situation. Even when you factor in Snarl its still not as broken as your over exaggerating it to be, do to the fact that most of the things worth doing anymore have powerful AoE's, so the pet is bound to die sooner or later even with max potency reward and recast down. Just like DRG with Jumps/Super Jump down we have just as much chance to die even with our hate erase abilities.

Like I said you're looking at BST as if it was supposed to be a heavy DD and not a utility job.

In the utility role DA+10% alone is enough to bring it to another level (look at BST pre DA Ganelon and post). Further add in the 25% Attack and factor in that you have 0 draw backs in most of the situations BST excels at and you have an overpowered job.

[Ramaza]

Well I'm sorry you implied that Ruinator allowed BST to keep up with DDs here:

I wasn't talking in literal absolutes like your trying to imply. Not every DD in a VW or any other serious endgame event is extremely well geared to the teeth (99 Adaberk/Ragnaroks etc), so its not impossible to keep up with them. It's really hard, but not impossible. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I should've elaborated more on my end.

If you broke the classes down to something rudimentary like Healer and DD then sure BST would go under DD.

That is correct as most classes (jobs) in todays modern MMO design have always followed the trifecta of the holy trinity (DD, Tank, Healer).

My community (the people I regularly play with) loves my BST, PUP, and SMN. You know in those situations where they are a bigger benefit over my other jobs.

I'm happy that, with the way things currently are, your pet jobs are working out for you in the situations you feel are worthy for it. As the way thing stand right now though, for anyone who actually wants to be a career BST and not a bandwagon farm/solo bot, and actually wants to join in and contribute to serious endgame events (VW, Legion, whatever comes out of the new expansion pack etc.) as BST, things could be much improved at the moment.

Like I said you're looking at BST as if it was supposed to be a heavy DD and not a utility job.

And the problem here is that your looking at as simply NOTHING MORE than a utility job that you occasionally make use of to fill whatever niche situation you need it for while "main'ing" something else. This is pretty much the FFXI community standard for jobs that can't excel or contribute some kind of "X factor" in a more than a few party situation (see: PLD, RDM, PUP, Pre-Embrava SCH). I'm speaking more from the point of view of a career vet BST from 03-04.

In the utility role DA+10% alone is enough to bring it to another level (look at BST pre DA Ganelon and post). Further add in the 25% Attack and factor in that you have 0 draw backs in most of the situations BST excels at and you have an overpowered job.

Once again see above. The problem with your statement is that your overstating a native dual wield buff as some kind Shoha/Resolution brokeness, and while I understand your mindset this is simply not true. There are draw backs. A good portion of the stuff BST excels at these days your not going to be subbing /WAR to full on DD to begin with (Dynamis, Salvage 1, Sea Jailers, Old Limbus, ZNMs, Meeble Burrows in some cases), as lack of cures, and pulling hate off your pet, could be a huge threat to death if your low manning without a healer present. If an actual healer was present, with the way things are, you'd probably be better off taking a MNK etc. Most other situations you may not be meleeing at all in a pet onry burn.

Most of the places BST excels at really isn't exclusive to the job anymore. Hell a DNC/WAR can already do all the above, cure themselves, and make a double attack+ dagger if they were so inclined. To top it all off they can pop Saber Dance which, while locking waltzes, gives them yet another double attack+50%, and only decays 20% at finish for 3mins. I don't think anyone is screaming for the nerf bat just yet on DNC.

What native dual wield will do more than out weights the negatives. It will make the job more attractive for more serious endgame events, as the extra damage from /WAR makes the job look a lot more attractive with native dual wield. We already need more parity between the DDs, and far more balance between job classes in the long run. I'm not asking to suddenly become gods among DD, crushing even the most well geared Ukon WAR, but hell at least let me compete with a PUP fairly at bare minimum. Mog house >>> Job Change is not a fix for class balance, and I think any career RDM, PLD, PUP would agree with me there. I find the the only people who really disagree with this mindset are career jobs that are winning in the mess post-abyssea balance we have currently.

This is one of the few MMOs I've played wherein the "Beastmaster" class was so far down the totem pole of DD classes.

[Zagen]

I'm happy that, with the way things currently are, your pet jobs are working out for you in the situations you feel are worthy for it. As the way thing stand right now though, for anyone who actually wants to be a career BST and not a bandwagon farm/solo bot, and actually wants to join in and contribute to serious endgame events (VW, Legion, whatever comes out of the new expansion pack etc.) as BST, things could be much improved at the moment.

BST isn't the only job excluded from Legion. VW BST gets brought as a proc job (mostly by JP on my server), look at BLU, DNC, SCH, PUP, SMN, NIN, probably a few more I'm forgetting. The point is not every job fits the player's created cookie cutter scenarios. It sure would suck if all switching from DRK to BST offered me the same damage potential, at that point what's the point of switching.

And the problem here is that your looking at as simply NOTHING MORE than a utility job that you occasionally make use of to fill whatever niche situation you need it for while "main'ing" something else. This is pretty much the FFXI community standard for jobs that can't excel or contribute some kind of "X factor" in a more than a few party situation (see: PLD, RDM, PUP, Pre-Embrava SCH). I'm speaking more from the point of view of a career vet BST from 03-04.

I remember those days where BST was part of pet parties taking down HNMs, only difference between then and now is it takes less pets. There were events where throwing pets wasn't efficient or even practical just like now there are the same type of events.

It's not only about looking at it just as only a utility job it's just looking at how jobs can't branch out of their core FFXI role(I get most MMOs have "healer, DD, and Tank" but FFXI goes beyond such simplicity and even other MMOs do if you bothered to look). I mean you won't see a WAR soloing events like a BST, PLD, BLU, RDM, PUP, etc. Even if they subbed DNC or a mage sub they just don't function well in that department.

Once again see above. The problem with your statement is that your overstating a native dual wield buff as some kind Shoha/Resolution brokeness, and while I understand your mindset this is simply not true. There are draw backs. A good portion of the stuff BST excels at these days your not going to be subbing /WAR to full on DD to begin with (Dynamis, Salvage 1, Sea Jailers, Old Limbus, ZNMs, Meeble Burrows in some cases), as lack of cures, and pulling hate off your pet, could be a huge threat to death if your low manning without a healer present. If an actual healer was present, with the way things are, you'd probably be better off taking a MNK etc. Most other situations you may not be meleeing at all in a pet onry burn.

• Dynamis I'll agree due to the proc system.
• Sea NMs honestly depends on the NM.
• Salvage 1 considering I'm currently doing it as PUP/THF with ranger frame because temps are enough I don't see your point (btw I tank on PUP more often than on BST).
• Limbus is like Salvage, except for a few zones restore chests are often more than enough.
• ZNMs it depends again as some just don't have nasty AoEs or AoEs at all.

Most of the places BST excels at really isn't exclusive to the job anymore. Hell a DNC/WAR can already do all the above, cure themselves, and make a double attack+ dagger if they were so inclined. To top it all off they can pop Saber Dance which, while locking waltzes, gives them yet another double attack+50%, and only decays 20% at finish for 3mins. I don't think anyone is screaming for the nerf bat just yet on DNC.

No role or event is exclusive to any job.

I can tell you don't actually play DNC. If you did you'd know /WAR is for DA if Saber Dance isn't being used and for Berserk.
FYI:

• Saber Dance and DA from /WAR don't stack.
• DA dagger sucks on DNC because of how Attack/STR starved the job is native, among other reasons.
• Saber Dance goes fro 50% to 20% in the first 30 seconds it's activated regardless of merits.

What native dual wield will do more than out weights the negatives. It will make the job more attractive for more serious endgame events, as the extra damage from /WAR makes the job look a lot more attractive with native dual wield. We already need more parity between the DDs, and far more balance between job classes in the long run. I'm not asking to suddenly become gods among DD, crushing even the most well geared Ukon WAR, but hell at least let me compete with a PUP fairly at bare minimum. Mog house >>> Job Change is not a fix for class balance, and I think any career RDM, PLD, PUP would agree with me there. I find the the only people who really disagree with this mindset are career jobs that are winning in the mess post-abyssea balance we have currently.

DW won't make it more attractive for end game, look at any other 1 hand and let me know how appealing they are (after all THF, BLU, and DNC all get DW 3). This might change with the 1 handed changes although right now that could go either way. Like I mentioned DW makes it stronger in events where it excels not in the events you're aiming to become more appealing.

BST already beats PUP so I don't get why you mention that. I pointed out where a PUP can beat a BST:
When pet damage is excluded meaning PUP can use WHM or RDM puppets to haste them.
When you're fighting magic weak but melee resistant monsters like puddings.

[SpankWustler]

I'm not sure if Beastmaster should have native Dual-Wield or not, but:

If you broke the classes down to something rudimentary like Healer and DD then sure BST would go under DD.

This is really close to how it actually breaks down. There are support jobs that provide some mixture of cures, buffs, and/or a particularly awesome or frequent Stuns somehow, and there are jobs that hit things with things. For the majority of group content, that's it. Even Black Mage and Paladin are very niche jobs.

Beastmaster can't whip a rabbit or slug until it uses Curaga IV or Chaos Roll, so that puts Beastmaster in the category of "this guy hits things with things and this pet hits things with its head" whenever a Beastmaster joins a group that isn't made entirely out of Beastmasters and Summoners.

[Glamdring]

You assumed wrong. I'm making this argument for the fact that we can't keep with a lot of DDs in the game. I don't know why you assumed the other, and yes WE ARE A DD CLASS just like any other pet job. We just currently aren't a very attractive DD class for endgame content. Its the community at large that continues to treat the class as the throw away position the class is currently in, and for good reason, because its a challenge to even keep up with other DD let alone be competitive. And no it would not make us overpowered, giving us Dual wield 2-3 isn't going to make us do better than a well geared Ukon/Resolution WAR or DRK or a weall geared SAM or a well geared DRG. One handed DD already have it rough versus 2 handers and the Motenten spreadsheets (dat math) can prove that.

Double attack+10% won't bridge a gap like that to borderline brokeness, neither will 25% attack bonus from Berserk, but what it can do is make us more competitive and attractive in a party situation. Even when you factor in Snarl its still not as broken as your over exaggerating it to be, do to the fact that most of the things worth doing anymore have powerful AoE's, so the pet is bound to die sooner or later even with max potency reward and recast down. Just like DRG with Jumps/Super Jump down we have just as much chance to die even with our hate erase abilities.

Nothing that BST currently excels at is worth being mitigated to nothing more than low man content whore ala Dynamis, Salvage etc. At least let us be competitive like a PUP/WAR can be. Unless you think PUP/WAR is currently broken.

100% on board with you. I've written a few times about beast utility in partys, and the general advice is for the other DD to back off until the pet has a buttload of hate, like you used to have people do with a conventional tank. The reason is the vast majority of bsts have gearred themselves for pet durability. The thing simply can't hold hate against a par or above DD, so if you are hoping the pet will keep the party alive (what most party builders seem to think is going to happen) you assume wrong. The other DD piling the TP on to the mob means that your pet is eating a hell of alot more specials than they do solo and pet healing simply can't keep up, at least without your own semi trailer full of dawn mulsums at party kill speeds.

oh, and speaking as someone who plays pup in end-game content, pup/anything is not OP, we're just nicely at the top end of DD with Sam and Drk when you add our auto's numbers to ours, IF you are using a DD auto. More often than not I'm running a whm auto to back-up heal in partys, necessary because almost every DD melee player on the servers these days is gearing for max DPS and forgetting the part about your prey WILL hit back, and while /dnc with a couple curing waltz 3 is nice a whm bombing Cure VI and erase is even nicer. Of course, the whm auto means our DD suffers (even with him hasting us) and takes us off the top end of DD. still, hella fun