BST Native Dual-Wield~

[Zagen]

I'm happy that, with the way things currently are, your pet jobs are working out for you in the situations you feel are worthy for it. As the way thing stand right now though, for anyone who actually wants to be a career BST and not a bandwagon farm/solo bot, and actually wants to join in and contribute to serious endgame events (VW, Legion, whatever comes out of the new expansion pack etc.) as BST, things could be much improved at the moment.

BST isn't the only job excluded from Legion. VW BST gets brought as a proc job (mostly by JP on my server), look at BLU, DNC, SCH, PUP, SMN, NIN, probably a few more I'm forgetting. The point is not every job fits the player's created cookie cutter scenarios. It sure would suck if all switching from DRK to BST offered me the same damage potential, at that point what's the point of switching.

And the problem here is that your looking at as simply NOTHING MORE than a utility job that you occasionally make use of to fill whatever niche situation you need it for while "main'ing" something else. This is pretty much the FFXI community standard for jobs that can't excel or contribute some kind of "X factor" in a more than a few party situation (see: PLD, RDM, PUP, Pre-Embrava SCH). I'm speaking more from the point of view of a career vet BST from 03-04.

I remember those days where BST was part of pet parties taking down HNMs, only difference between then and now is it takes less pets. There were events where throwing pets wasn't efficient or even practical just like now there are the same type of events.

It's not only about looking at it just as only a utility job it's just looking at how jobs can't branch out of their core FFXI role(I get most MMOs have "healer, DD, and Tank" but FFXI goes beyond such simplicity and even other MMOs do if you bothered to look). I mean you won't see a WAR soloing events like a BST, PLD, BLU, RDM, PUP, etc. Even if they subbed DNC or a mage sub they just don't function well in that department.

Once again see above. The problem with your statement is that your overstating a native dual wield buff as some kind Shoha/Resolution brokeness, and while I understand your mindset this is simply not true. There are draw backs. A good portion of the stuff BST excels at these days your not going to be subbing /WAR to full on DD to begin with (Dynamis, Salvage 1, Sea Jailers, Old Limbus, ZNMs, Meeble Burrows in some cases), as lack of cures, and pulling hate off your pet, could be a huge threat to death if your low manning without a healer present. If an actual healer was present, with the way things are, you'd probably be better off taking a MNK etc. Most other situations you may not be meleeing at all in a pet onry burn.

• Dynamis I'll agree due to the proc system.
• Sea NMs honestly depends on the NM.
• Salvage 1 considering I'm currently doing it as PUP/THF with ranger frame because temps are enough I don't see your point (btw I tank on PUP more often than on BST).
• Limbus is like Salvage, except for a few zones restore chests are often more than enough.
• ZNMs it depends again as some just don't have nasty AoEs or AoEs at all.

Most of the places BST excels at really isn't exclusive to the job anymore. Hell a DNC/WAR can already do all the above, cure themselves, and make a double attack+ dagger if they were so inclined. To top it all off they can pop Saber Dance which, while locking waltzes, gives them yet another double attack+50%, and only decays 20% at finish for 3mins. I don't think anyone is screaming for the nerf bat just yet on DNC.

No role or event is exclusive to any job.

I can tell you don't actually play DNC. If you did you'd know /WAR is for DA if Saber Dance isn't being used and for Berserk.
FYI:

• Saber Dance and DA from /WAR don't stack.
• DA dagger sucks on DNC because of how Attack/STR starved the job is native, among other reasons.
• Saber Dance goes fro 50% to 20% in the first 30 seconds it's activated regardless of merits.

What native dual wield will do more than out weights the negatives. It will make the job more attractive for more serious endgame events, as the extra damage from /WAR makes the job look a lot more attractive with native dual wield. We already need more parity between the DDs, and far more balance between job classes in the long run. I'm not asking to suddenly become gods among DD, crushing even the most well geared Ukon WAR, but hell at least let me compete with a PUP fairly at bare minimum. Mog house >>> Job Change is not a fix for class balance, and I think any career RDM, PLD, PUP would agree with me there. I find the the only people who really disagree with this mindset are career jobs that are winning in the mess post-abyssea balance we have currently.

DW won't make it more attractive for end game, look at any other 1 hand and let me know how appealing they are (after all THF, BLU, and DNC all get DW 3). This might change with the 1 handed changes although right now that could go either way. Like I mentioned DW makes it stronger in events where it excels not in the events you're aiming to become more appealing.

BST already beats PUP so I don't get why you mention that. I pointed out where a PUP can beat a BST:
When pet damage is excluded meaning PUP can use WHM or RDM puppets to haste them.
When you're fighting magic weak but melee resistant monsters like puddings.

[Kaeoni]

Job restrictions due to how the job is already naively designed, It Just makes sense for a Thief to sub Ninja or Dancer pre DW buff. It was a massive increase in DPS and even now both of those subs are used in different situations, /war is not exclusively used By thieves in all situations.

Beastmaster is in the same situation that Thief was previously in. It's locked into certain subjobs.

Pre 99 I used /whm quite frequently leveling the job. It wasn't something I particularly enjoyed, but the end justified the means, I had to stay alive, sneak/invisible charm monsters, the whole solo thing.

/mage isn't something I've taken seriously since /dancer came out. With a combination of a great Regen set, PDT/MDT set, well timed Snarls and intelligent gaming you don't need /mage unless you need a long lasting snk/inv for bumming around old content to do someones COP/TOAU/WOTG missions where /rdm or /whm is good enough.
I would certainly look at /whm again If the job was offered any good Scythes, entirely because of how Entropy operates Being an Apocalypse Drk I'm not wasting merits on the WS with my intent to make some kind of weird bst/whm Scythe melee. Which wouldn't work anyways because then If I was out to DD with a Scythe Id want to sub Samurai for Hasso not to mention I'm just throwing away my A- Axe skill and Guttler for a gimp scythe and B- Scythe skill.. In which case Bst/Whm is just another form of bst/dnc with worse attack/accuracy, haste spell, bad cure4's erase and RR...(off track here)

90% of the time you're on /dnc, it's a good combination of what whm used to give in regards to survivability and what Ninja offers in DD.
The only thing Ninja sub offers to a Bst is a single Tier of Dual Wield(10% respectively). This effectively makes this subjob our "DD sub" That's all this sub offers us. Utsusemi certainly helps mitigate some damage. But this is by no means anything comparable to what /dnc gives us. You sub Ninja with the intent you have someone backing you up in the healing department, which means you also at least have haste.

So far I shouldn't have said anything none of you already knew, but I thought to clarify, first off, my thoughts on the matter.

Now then. Explain to me why giving Bst Native Dual wield 3 and letting it /war is in any way different than what has already been done for Thief. Just because I can sub warrior doesn't mean I do all the time. The jobs own limitations and type of event you are participating in dictate what you are generally suppose to sub. What is the point of further restricting the jobs ability to do damage in a situation where it's suppose to do damage, furthermore, why would a person even care?
Just because Bst can berserk aggressor and have 10% more Double attack, That means we are out DDing Ragnarok/Resolution 2hr Warriors? Ragnarok Dark knights? What about an Ukon War, Apocalypse Dark knight? How about an Amano/Masa Sam? Simply a TP bonus Magian Samurai then? The Jobs not designed to do DD? Where exactly does it state that? If it did, and i missed the memo, in what situations am i beating said above DDs outside of solo/duo content?

What exactly does anyone gain when Beastmaster is able to sub a superior sub job to ninja?
Alternatively,
What exactly does anyone exactly lose?

The answer to all these questions? Nothing, Nothing changes. Your Dark knights your Warriors your Samurai and all your current Top DD stay top DD. Beastmaster isn't changing into /war on a regular basis because of the jobs own limitations when it comes to snarl timers and healing. When it comes down to it, /dnc is a superior DD sub anyways because you actually have the ability to take damage and recover it with Waltz3 and Drain SambaII, You don't need to turn away and cry in a corner because the monster under the bed scolded you for putting your pants on backwards like a little pre-schooler. What, are you going to do when you pull hate on /war? Switch into Regen gear and wait it out while your pet solos like when you were /whm? Rest? Pop some potions on an already gear intensive job?

You truly have zero understanding of the job if you don't understand how niche /war would actually be.
If you want to get right down to it, for MOST of the situations where you would want to sub warrior, You would probably be better off changing your job entirely.
The point is, there isn't any harm going to be done in doing so and giving the Job a better DD sub by giving it Dual Wield 3. I'm more interested in Tier3 DW for when i'm subbing Dancer, just so i can be of the same Tier dmg wise as ninja.

[Chimerawizard]

Ouch that was a lot of text.

As I understand it, you want dual wield to increase a BSTs DD potential. Obviously SE doesn't want to give BST dual wield, that is why they created fencer, along with trying to make single hand weapons for war slightly more relevant.

Therefore, adjust what the job trait fencer actually does, and while we're at it, change what tier each job that has it maxes out at.

Proposal: WAR-3 RDM-4 BST-3 BRD-2 RUN-3.

Give fencer tier one 10% job ability haste and every +1 after another 5% haste.
Take away all other effects fencer currently gives.

RDM was added and given the highest rank due to its artifact weapon Literally called Fencing degen. RUN has fencer as the second word in the job so, would give highest tier but there's a weapon it can equip that would put it over JA haste cap.

Levels of traits subject to balancing.

Edit: yes, basically the same as giving BST dual wield without them having to admit they gave dual wield.

[Plasticleg]

let's not and say we didn't

[Olor]

I'd love for BST to get native dual wield. Native DW 1 would not be game breaking in the slightest. I actually think all 1H support/non-pure mage jobs (so not GEO SCH WHM BLM SMN) should get T1 DW at 99 (if they don't get it sooner) - meaning I support it for PLD, RDM, RNG, COR and BRD as well

[Metaking]

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Kerehcatl ( DMG:156 Delay:288 Accuracy+28 Attack+25 Pet: Accuracy+28 Attack+28) + this http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Brethren_Axe (DMG:132 Delay:288 Accuracy+16 Enmity-4 Pet: Accuracy+20) and lets say you could get dw3(25%) naturally Skadi's Cuirie +1 (7%) suppa(5%) Thurandaut chapeau(5% tho I dont think bst can cap haste and use it atm with everything else listed here) so 42% dw would leave you with about 334 delay cap haste(gear) and you at like 250ish not sure if the game will round that up or not.... moveing on, 4.8 tp per hit throw on a rajas and it becomes an even 5 tp per hit.

so 287 dmg at 250delay under your own power is kinda scary, but when coupled with such a beefy weapon skill im pritty sure drg and pup would be dropping a peg on the latter to make way for bst with the rest of the dws having to bring there A game or get crushed, and without how bad most of are(dw'ers) merit weapon skills are.... yea you could be alittle op at that point especially with war sub

ps before someone says it, yes i realize there weapon skill only uses the main hand dmg for the weapon skill excluding the last hit which is with the off hand

[Louispv]

crap

And I guess that makes BLU and THF super broken as they can get 40% dual wield by themselves with that gear already, and DNC and NIN incredibly broken because they can do it BEFORE any of that gear, right?

And you realize that BST can't equip Thurandaut right? And that no one should ever wear skadi body+1 because it's worthless crap for anyone but RNG? Especially not BST who gets a straight 30% damage increase from Ferine Gausape+2 and Killer instinct? And that you don't add the two weapons together because they attack separately? And that you don't know how to calculate delay? And that every single job just got weapons exactly like those, thus negating your entire argument?

[Chimerawizard]

No one should ever wear skadi body+1 because it's worthless crap. Especially not BST who gets a straight 30% damage increase from Ferine Gausape+2 and Killer instinct?

You do know that gauspe is situational right? Also, skadi body +1 beats other body pieces when geared properly, so don't say it's worthless crap. It is worth less than the hands and legs but not worth less than Toci's.

Edit: source for why it's not worthless,ffxiah/forums/BST/lv99gearsets. it beat armadaberk in parse.

[Louispv]

Gausape is no longer situational. Everything in Adoulin but the umbrils is intimidated by BST. And nearly everything in the zone (and everything in delve) is the same family, so one pet gives the killer circle for damn near the whole zone. You never take it off anymore. Hell it even wins for WS's now. I stopped even taking my phorcys body out of storage unless I'm screwing around in limbus for some reason.

And the parse you linked explicitly states you need augmented Huginn gambieras and a patientia sash in order for skadi to be at all useful. And even then you're losing capped haste, and relying on a critical hit rate you can only get on enemies lower level than you. Have fun getting 300 million gil to make your worthless armor slightly useful (but still sub-par) in a FFXI that no longer exists because adoulin was released.

[Chimerawizard]

the parse you linked explicitly states you need augmented Huginn gambieras and a patientia sash in order for skadi to be at all useful.

first, gauspe is situational. If you are in dynamis for some easy Gil, do you bring gauspe or other bodies... End of story, situational, end of story.
The whole rest of the game did not go away, it was just outclassed.

"in order to be at all useful"...you should have read it better. He was saying those were the two TOP TP sets at the time of posting. Yes hq feet were needed to be at top dps. It still does hella better than gauspe when the enemy has no killer effects to exploit.

Just realized, you're trolling, aren't you.