BST Native Dual-Wield~

[Glamdring]

@OP you didn't search far enough, there were about 138 threads encompassing every job about giving every single job dual wield native, and that certainly included beast. the discussions went on for weeks, and it was about as informative and interesting as a steady diet of 3:00 a.m. C-span. The eventual answer was that thf got dual wield. The End.

[Ramaza]

@OP you didn't search far enough, there were about 138 threads encompassing every job about giving every single job dual wield native, and that certainly included beast. the discussions went on for weeks, and it was about as informative and interesting as a steady diet of 3:00 a.m. C-span. The eventual answer was that thf got dual wield. The End.

I actually did a deeper search of the forums and found the thread your talking about a couple of days ago. It's a shame that's all it amounted to. I don't get why THF and BLU got Dual-wield and not BST. I would think that out of all the potential dual-wielding jobs we'd at least make it to the top 4 in terms of actually making use of dual wield. At this point though I'm fully expecting we get shield mastery of all things :/

[Demon6324236]

I actually did a deeper search of the forums and found the thread your talking about a couple of days ago. It's a shame that's all it amounted to. I don't get why THF and BLU got Dual-wield and not BST. I would think that out of all the potential dual-wielding jobs we'd at least make it to the top 4 in terms of actually making use of dual wield. At this point though I'm fully expecting we get shield mastery of all things :/

If its what you get, then your in the same boat as RDM, not a pleasant boat I assure you, cause it means SE at least acknowledged your problem, and instead of fixing it they thought it was better to simply give you something off topic and terrible for your job.

[Ramaza]

If its what you get, then your in the same boat as RDM, not a pleasant boat I assure you, cause it means SE at least acknowledged your problem, and instead of fixing it they thought it was better to simply give you something off topic and terrible for your job.

I just really want to understand their thought processes behind some of these job adjustments. There's things they could be doing right now that are simple, small, and easy additions like BST dual wield, or giving RDMs the merit spells in scroll form instead. Yet for some odd reason it either neither gets done, or its something we never asked for, didn't want and still don't need today. I mean why would anyone willingly single wield on BST in this day and age unless forced into it for a niche situation.

[Zagen]

oh, and speaking as someone who plays pup in end-game content, pup/anything is not OP, we're just nicely at the top end of DD with Sam and Drk when you add our auto's numbers to ours, IF you are using a DD auto

Unless you're highly skewing the odds in PUP's favor no you're not (even with the auto).

PUP does edge out over BST in general. Adding the pets however usually will benefit the BST more unless we're talking something like pudding types. The main detriment of the pet for pup is that in order to make it a good pet you need to keep up maneuvers which hurts the PUP's damage potential.

Edit: I should clarify when talking about PUP > BST for damage that assumes the WHM or RDM puppet giving Haste. Otherwise PUP is behind BST for master damage.

[Kaeoni]

Job restrictions due to how the job is already naively designed, It Just makes sense for a Thief to sub Ninja or Dancer pre DW buff. It was a massive increase in DPS and even now both of those subs are used in different situations, /war is not exclusively used By thieves in all situations.

Beastmaster is in the same situation that Thief was previously in. It's locked into certain subjobs.

Pre 99 I used /whm quite frequently leveling the job. It wasn't something I particularly enjoyed, but the end justified the means, I had to stay alive, sneak/invisible charm monsters, the whole solo thing.

/mage isn't something I've taken seriously since /dancer came out. With a combination of a great Regen set, PDT/MDT set, well timed Snarls and intelligent gaming you don't need /mage unless you need a long lasting snk/inv for bumming around old content to do someones COP/TOAU/WOTG missions where /rdm or /whm is good enough.
I would certainly look at /whm again If the job was offered any good Scythes, entirely because of how Entropy operates Being an Apocalypse Drk I'm not wasting merits on the WS with my intent to make some kind of weird bst/whm Scythe melee. Which wouldn't work anyways because then If I was out to DD with a Scythe Id want to sub Samurai for Hasso not to mention I'm just throwing away my A- Axe skill and Guttler for a gimp scythe and B- Scythe skill.. In which case Bst/Whm is just another form of bst/dnc with worse attack/accuracy, haste spell, bad cure4's erase and RR...(off track here)

90% of the time you're on /dnc, it's a good combination of what whm used to give in regards to survivability and what Ninja offers in DD.
The only thing Ninja sub offers to a Bst is a single Tier of Dual Wield(10% respectively). This effectively makes this subjob our "DD sub" That's all this sub offers us. Utsusemi certainly helps mitigate some damage. But this is by no means anything comparable to what /dnc gives us. You sub Ninja with the intent you have someone backing you up in the healing department, which means you also at least have haste.

So far I shouldn't have said anything none of you already knew, but I thought to clarify, first off, my thoughts on the matter.

Now then. Explain to me why giving Bst Native Dual wield 3 and letting it /war is in any way different than what has already been done for Thief. Just because I can sub warrior doesn't mean I do all the time. The jobs own limitations and type of event you are participating in dictate what you are generally suppose to sub. What is the point of further restricting the jobs ability to do damage in a situation where it's suppose to do damage, furthermore, why would a person even care?
Just because Bst can berserk aggressor and have 10% more Double attack, That means we are out DDing Ragnarok/Resolution 2hr Warriors? Ragnarok Dark knights? What about an Ukon War, Apocalypse Dark knight? How about an Amano/Masa Sam? Simply a TP bonus Magian Samurai then? The Jobs not designed to do DD? Where exactly does it state that? If it did, and i missed the memo, in what situations am i beating said above DDs outside of solo/duo content?

What exactly does anyone gain when Beastmaster is able to sub a superior sub job to ninja?
Alternatively,
What exactly does anyone exactly lose?

The answer to all these questions? Nothing, Nothing changes. Your Dark knights your Warriors your Samurai and all your current Top DD stay top DD. Beastmaster isn't changing into /war on a regular basis because of the jobs own limitations when it comes to snarl timers and healing. When it comes down to it, /dnc is a superior DD sub anyways because you actually have the ability to take damage and recover it with Waltz3 and Drain SambaII, You don't need to turn away and cry in a corner because the monster under the bed scolded you for putting your pants on backwards like a little pre-schooler. What, are you going to do when you pull hate on /war? Switch into Regen gear and wait it out while your pet solos like when you were /whm? Rest? Pop some potions on an already gear intensive job?

You truly have zero understanding of the job if you don't understand how niche /war would actually be.
If you want to get right down to it, for MOST of the situations where you would want to sub warrior, You would probably be better off changing your job entirely.
The point is, there isn't any harm going to be done in doing so and giving the Job a better DD sub by giving it Dual Wield 3. I'm more interested in Tier3 DW for when i'm subbing Dancer, just so i can be of the same Tier dmg wise as ninja.

[Chimerawizard]

Ouch that was a lot of text.

As I understand it, you want dual wield to increase a BSTs DD potential. Obviously SE doesn't want to give BST dual wield, that is why they created fencer, along with trying to make single hand weapons for war slightly more relevant.

Therefore, adjust what the job trait fencer actually does, and while we're at it, change what tier each job that has it maxes out at.

Proposal: WAR-3 RDM-4 BST-3 BRD-2 RUN-3.

Give fencer tier one 10% job ability haste and every +1 after another 5% haste.
Take away all other effects fencer currently gives.

RDM was added and given the highest rank due to its artifact weapon Literally called Fencing degen. RUN has fencer as the second word in the job so, would give highest tier but there's a weapon it can equip that would put it over JA haste cap.

Levels of traits subject to balancing.

Edit: yes, basically the same as giving BST dual wield without them having to admit they gave dual wield.

[Plasticleg]

let's not and say we didn't

[Olor]

I'd love for BST to get native dual wield. Native DW 1 would not be game breaking in the slightest. I actually think all 1H support/non-pure mage jobs (so not GEO SCH WHM BLM SMN) should get T1 DW at 99 (if they don't get it sooner) - meaning I support it for PLD, RDM, RNG, COR and BRD as well

[Metaking]

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Kerehcatl ( DMG:156 Delay:288 Accuracy+28 Attack+25 Pet: Accuracy+28 Attack+28) + this http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Brethren_Axe (DMG:132 Delay:288 Accuracy+16 Enmity-4 Pet: Accuracy+20) and lets say you could get dw3(25%) naturally Skadi's Cuirie +1 (7%) suppa(5%) Thurandaut chapeau(5% tho I dont think bst can cap haste and use it atm with everything else listed here) so 42% dw would leave you with about 334 delay cap haste(gear) and you at like 250ish not sure if the game will round that up or not.... moveing on, 4.8 tp per hit throw on a rajas and it becomes an even 5 tp per hit.

so 287 dmg at 250delay under your own power is kinda scary, but when coupled with such a beefy weapon skill im pritty sure drg and pup would be dropping a peg on the latter to make way for bst with the rest of the dws having to bring there A game or get crushed, and without how bad most of are(dw'ers) merit weapon skills are.... yea you could be alittle op at that point especially with war sub

ps before someone says it, yes i realize there weapon skill only uses the main hand dmg for the weapon skill excluding the last hit which is with the off hand